Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 21 › Conversation 021-066

Nixon phone call with Safire on Busing speech and Desegregation

Tuesday, March 14, 1972 · 2:55 PM–3:15 PM ET · White House Telephone · 20 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Safire, William L.Conversation021-066 on Tape 21 (tape position 02:25:43–02:45:33)StartTuesday, March 14, 1972 at 2:55 PMEndTuesday, March 14, 1972 at 3:15 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 021-066 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 646310132 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon provided detailed guidance to William Safire regarding a speech on busing, emphasizing a 10-minute length and a tilt towards the majority view against mandatory busing. Nixon stressed the need for simple, impactful language understandable to a television audience, using vivid examples of children facing long bus rides past neighborhood schools. He directed Safire to focus on the detrimental effects on education and well-being, while acknowledging the need to avoid turning back desegregation and to present a balanced message to Congress the following day. Key action items included drafting the speech with these points, with Nixon to review a draft by 9:30 am the next morning, and strict instructions to keep the draft confidential.

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Position in tape (archivists' log): 02:25:43 – 02:45:33

part B, 22:22

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NARA Description

On March 14, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and William L. Safire talked on the telephone from 2:55 pm to 3:15 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 021-066 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 21-66

Date: March 14, 1972
Time: 2:55 pm - 3:15 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with William L. Safire.

[See Conversation No. 685-12]

     Busing speech, March 16, 1972
          -Length
          -Content
               -Message to Congress [March 17, 1972]
               -Majority
               -Prejudice
               -Desegregation
               -Appeal to television audience
                     -Effect on children
                          -Example
                          -Brown versus Board of Education
                                -Elliot Richardson
                                -Leonard Garment
                          -White and black neighborhoods
                                -Parents concern

-Message to Congress
-Moratorium
-Segregation and desegregation
      -George C. Wallace
-Constitutional amendment
-Moratorium
-Liberals
-Court decisions
-Focus of speech
      -Television
            -Florida primary
      -Timing
-Segregation
      -Dual school system
-Inferior education
      -Brown versus Board of Education
            -Desegregation
            -Improvement of education
-Need for action
Show the rest of the log (35 more lines)
      -Constitutional amendment
            -Length of process
      -Legislation
      -Moratorium
      -Equal Opportunity Education Act
      -Implementation by federal agencies
            -Lawyers
                  -Justice Department
                  -Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]
-Rhetoric
      -Negro rights
      -Administration record
-Title One
      -California
      -Connecticut
-Need for support
      -Wallace
      -Howard H. Baker, Jr.
      -William E. Brock, III
      -Robert P. Griffin
-Message to Congress
-Constitutional rights of US citizens
-Issue described

          -Average citizen
          -Moratorium
                -Explanation of term
          -Instructions to Safire
                -Deadline for draft
                -Raymond K. Price, Jr.
                -Garment
                -Richardson
                -John D. Ehrlichman
                -Deadline
                      -Timing

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was made by an AI model listening to the recording (gemini-3.8-flash) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Speaker names are the model's inference from the voices and the participant list. Words and names can still be wrong — verify against the audio and the finding aid before citing.

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SafireHello?
NixonSafire?
NixonYes, Mr. President. I wanted to give you a little guidance with regard to this thing you're working on now.
NixonFirst, as you know, it's we want it 10 minutes, so talking about 1,500 words, right? 10 to 12 minutes.
NixonSecond, with regard to tilt, the message, of course, will be given out the following day and it naturally will be balanced and, if anything, will be tilted more toward the reasonable and so forth, approach.
NixonThe tilt on this one, if it's there is to be any tilt at all, should be more toward those, toward the majority, basically.
NixonIn other words, and and In other words, you don't have to put in all the qualifying things about how so much about the the trying to to demonstrate the business about prejudice, and so forth, and so forth. A little can go in on that, but but just so that we will have covered it.
NixonThe the main point is that this must be one that in effect says we've got this problem of busing, and we're going to do something about it. And this is what we're going to do. And this is why I'm against it and so forth. Now, then we put in, of course, that, well, we're of course, we're not going to turn the clock back on
Nixondesegregation and so forth, and so on. And education is the thing, so forth. Right.
NixonAs far as the tilt is concerned, it should be in that direction. Now,
Nixonas far as what is said in it, I I as much as possible pick up I mean, we should just pick up out of the rhetoric that we will have in the message because there's quite a bit of good rhetoric in that already, you know. In other words, those lines are fine. I don't mind adding some, but in terms of what could be added,
Nixonwhat should be added would be along these lines. Make it understandable to the television audience. I think, I think if I'm just thinking out loud now and then you can put your mind to it and I'll, I'm I'm a little I haven't had a chance to do anything until just this minute about it.
NixonBut but, I'd I'd say getting something in the feeling that it doesn't that that for example, we can say in the busing, under under a a I don't when on a an 8-year-old child is picked up by a
Nixonand is within 5 minutes of a school which she can walk to, or he or she can walk to. And where, because of a court-ordered bus,
Nixonshe has to get up half hour, an hour early in the morning and ride a bus for an hour both ways, or something like that. Far away. In other words, in a in another, in another area. Etc.
NixonYou know, that that this, first, it this is done in the name of of basically ending segregation. And, of course, if you carry out Brown v. [unintelligible] you think that really means purity, but
Nixonwell it, well while it while it may be contended that this serves the cause of ending of of ending segregation, it certainly is detrimental to education, and to the health, the well-being, and so forth, and so on of the child. And this has got to stop.
NixonI mean, I'm against this. It's got to stop. Right. And, you know, using and putting in a vivid example, you know, one of those horrible examples that we read hear so much about.
NixonWe'll say, for example, that this is what has happened. Now, that'll drive I don't want you to discuss this with anybody, [laughs] because Elliot and, maybe, Len and the rest go up the wall. Because the point is, it's what I'm concerned about, and it's what the country's concerned about. And also, they're right.
NixonNow, it's true that there are there are many examples where that isn't the case, but it's that that we're trying to get about. And that is stirring up the country. Now, it's also true that a lot of white parents are disturbed about
Nixonsending their kids into black neighborhoods with black teachers with kids with switchblade knives. That's true. On the other hand, you could take this child is white or black. Doesn't make any difference.
NixonI don't care whether the child is white or black. For a child to to have to go past the neighborhood school. In other words, that where where she could what? 5 minutes away is a is a neighborhood school, where all of her friends go. But because, in order to serve the because of a court order,
Nixonshe has to get on a get up an hour earlier, you know, and ride a school bus for an hour clear across town to another school in a neighborhood, another neighborhood, in the name in order to serve the cause. This is wrong. This is going to stop.
NixonWe're not going to have it. There is there's got to be a better way or something like that. You see what I mean?
SafireRight.
NixonIt is on that that we must make, that positive example will make this little talk. All the other crap is, is of course, important. The the message the following day with all of its blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is what the editorial writers will have to seize upon and they'll argue about the legislation and the rest.
NixonSo, with what I'm really saying is this: make this as simple as possible. Don't don't have to go into any detail in pointing out the exceptions and the fine points and the rest about what the what the moratorium does and does not cover.
NixonI mean, I mean, let that come the next day, you know? Just just enough so that it's honest. So that the country
Nixon80% of the people, including over 50% of the blacks, that are against busing of their kids, they will say, "Well, by God, he is saying what we believe." See? Now, naturally, put in enough of the rhetoric in this at the beginning and at the end,
Nixonto say that, you know, the idea that this this is a this is not a black versus white issue. We don't want to turn the clock back on segregation, on desegregation. Let's all go forward together, etc., etc. I want all that in so that
Nixonso that because I I think it's necessary to to to enlighten the country a bit here, too, and not just make a Wallace-type speech. But what I what I'm concerned about is here that the simplistic answer, as you know, is a constitutional amendment, stopping.
NixonNow, we're rejecting that. And we're even reject rejecting a simplistic moratorium. We're we're we're we're we're not going as far as some of the more liberal people want, and that is just make it so soft it means nothing, and just still leave it in the morass of the courts.
NixonOne other thing that I think is certainly worth doing is to kick the hell out of the courts. That phrase that I have in there with regard to well, it isn't in there yet, but if you can think of a better one, that the the court decisions in here have been contradictory, confusing,
Nixonchaotic. It's a morass, it's a maze, it's a jungle, it's a, well, what have you. You know what I mean. Not because courts have tried to, but because And that now it's time for Congress to step in and and fill this vacuum and so forth, and so on. But but pointing out that the court decision, because it gets the monkey off our back with what we regard to what's already happened, you see.
SafireMhm.
NixonWell, I don't know whether this will help you or not, but at least it'll give you a little bit of a feel out of that, I mean, 20,000 words what I want to get down to 1,500 and what's worth putting in.
SafireAnd you want to you want an action feeling and you want to put the story in the lead, yes, sir, up up early. So, you
NixonWell, I think so. I mean, unless you feel differently, I I feel this. I'm going to be speaking to television, 12 minutes. I think I think we've got to grab right into it. I mean, I I'm not sure, but what way the way he starts it there isn't too bad, but you could say, "I want to talk about an issue that is"
Nixonyou know, after all, this will be two days after the Florida primary, that an issue that has that is of concern to every all Americans. Or something like that. You know what I mean. It
NixonRight. Respects every an issue that affects every American. The issue of busing divides Americans. The issue that unites, isn't bad, is education. A little of that malarkey is all right. But that, and then I would say,
Nixondesegregation in a way that does not result in inferior education, because the purpose of Brown, of course,
Nixonit was not—this is awful hard to say, was not primarily desegregation. The purpose of Brown
Nixonwas was better education. I mean, that was what the goddamn case is about. We can't say that, quite in those words, but
Nixonthat's what Brown Brown was about what its title suggests. It was about education, not about segregation. And it was because segregated education was found to be, as a result of the Brown brief, inferior education that they said segregated education is unconstitutional. See?
SafireRight.
NixonNow, so, I am against that. Now, the there have been many things suggested, and so forth, and what we must do is to, and and
Nixonand maybe maybe high up you put in the Constitutional amendment, rather than at the end. Some have suggested a constitutional amendment, and then blast it out by saying that if the Constitutional amendment was the way to do it, but
Nixonthe main trouble is that there is is doubt that it you could get a whether it'd get to through the the majority now. It would have to pass the courts, and it would be a matter of years, and what is needed, it it would take too long, and this is, of course, not the timely way to do it. It It is
NixonWhat is needed is action now,
Nixonand therefore, and what I have is a program to deal with it now. And the way to get action now is by legislation.
SafireOn that paragraph, the amendment, as it's you hit the idea that it'll take too long.
NixonMore Yeah, more than that. We We have in there, if you read the message, we have in it we we are against it for other reasons, too, but basically, we can say it,
Nixonclearly apart, we'll say, from some of the grave questions that arise as to whether a Constitutional amendment would work and so forth, they
Nixonfor those that are interested in doing something, it does not speak to the problem now. We need action now. It would take two years. And and a one year, and one year out of a child's life
Nixonis worth saving, you know. One year of an inferior education is a cost that's too high to pay, you know, or something like that. Then, then you come into this, so that's why I am for, one,
Nixona moratorium. We're going to stop all busing at this time while we have a chance to look. And, two,
Nixonwe're for equality equal opportunity education action over, and then help the, you know, improve education where kids live, and so forth and so on. And, three,
NixonI'm, and be sure you get a little bit stronger on this point, I have instructed the agencies of the government, and kick the damn agencies by implication, all agencies of the government at every level
Nixonto to carry out the spirit of this message in their in their actions. You see, the real devils here,
NixonBill, in the minds of the people, are the Justice Department lawyers and the HEW, you know, enforcers. And I want to be on the right. And then, and
Nixonout of I've also instructed the Justice Department to intervene at cases where this is not being carried out. And then, come in with some more high-sounding rhetoric at the end.
NixonLook, I would not put in, I don't think you need to put in that long defense of the fact that I am really for Negro rights, I mean that
NixonI mean my commitment and what, which was my language, incidentally, that it isn't not our record, but our our rhetoric, but our record that matters. Our record is buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh. That can be in the other message.
NixonYou can say it in a sentence, but you don't need to put all that I'm just telling you these are things you can drop out at great length. You can drop out all of that rigamarole about how Title I has worked in California and
NixonConnecticut and the rest. You can all drop that out. Just say it in a sentence. But But I
Nixonwhat I'm I'm mainly interested in getting across a the fact that this is an answer to the busing people, because what I'm concerned about is that
Nixonthe there is no way, let me say, that the get the support of the people that are pro-busing. They're going to kick this, they're going to kick anything.
NixonWhat I am concerned about is that we will not get the support and and of those, I don't mean you can get get a Wallace,
Nixonbut I but we would not get the support of the decent people like the Bakers and the Brocks and the rest, and the Griffins, who have Constitutional amendments in. We've got to get their support. And unless we speak to that issue
Nixonvery effectively, we won't get that support. It's that that I've that we have to do primarily through this message, you see? And also through this message, we're putting we want to put the President strongly on the side,
Nixon"I am against busing. The question is how to do it. And how to do it the right way, and I don't have the reason I don't have the luxury of demagoguing about it and being simplistic about it, because it's a very complicated thing.
NixonWe want to do the right thing, we want to we want to do this, we want to have we want to deal with this problem without without stoppi- uh you know, turning without
Nixonviolating the Constitutional rights of people. We Well,
SafireThe other thing, you know, maybe a passing reference to the message itself and urging people to read it, because it's, you know, so carefully drawn and all that stuff.
NixonYes, I have I have I have I have I am sending a message of blank thousand words to the Congress. I urge all of those to read it carefully. It has it's been I've been I've been working on it for
NixonI've been working on it for for for weeks. I mean, and and it has received carefully.
NixonMet with people for all over I've I've been I've met with people from all over the country who have varying views on this. This message represents my best thinking. The best thinking of my wife, and my best thinking as to
Nixonthe the the the as to the fairest, the most decent solution to a terribly difficult problem. It is the most difficult domestic problem that I have confronted since being President,
Nixonand perhaps the most difficult one that has confronted this nation in 100 years. Should put it that way.
NixonAnd so, and I realize this awesome, solemn responsibility, and it is in that spirit that I have approached it. I urge you to read the message. Tonight,
Nixonwhat I have done is to you might put this towards the end, or towards the beginning, I don't know which, if you start about the message, then you might want to put I I'd like to summarize it for you. I want to hit some of the highlights.
NixonWhack. Maybe that's the way to get at it. If you maybe that is a good idea, Bill, to refer to the fact that the message is lengthy and this and that, and then you can get all the eggheads that are interested in the message to read it.
SafireRight. Right. And showing that you're
NixonAnd showing that I'm showing that there are other phases, so they don't say, "Gee whiz, he why'd he pick this out and pick that out?" But, in terms of I just want you to put yourself in in the position of that average person out there,
Nixonthinking of his child, or his neighbor's child,
Nixonriding that goddamn school bus, see?
SafireRight, I got the point.
SafireOne uh odd question. Do you think most people know what a moratorium is?
NixonYeah, I think so. Well, Well, then I'd put moratorium—this means a stop, a freeze, something like that.
NixonI I think the word "moratorium" has been so If If you think there's any question, I think it has I don't think we can duck using it, let me say, because I think it's the
SafireWell, let's use it, and then define it, and then—
NixonThis means This means that there I have called a moratorium. This means that there will be a freeze, a stop, there'll be no more busing, or something like that, for a year.
NixonSee?
SafireRight.
NixonWhatever. This gives the time to do it. That that'd be a way to do it.
SafireOkay. Now, I'll go hell for leather on this, but uh you got to give me a few hours. Um
NixonOh, I know that. I know you you certainly, I wouldn't even expect you to even approach having it done. Why don't you take the rest of today? [chuckles] No.
NixonYou know what I mean. Uh they No. No, I My My thought is that I should take a look at it in the morning.
SafireOkay, that's perfect. How's that sound? That's perfect, in fact, you know, I could take the night.
NixonBy By the morning, by the morning, uh I mean, you you work late anyway, but uh work around. Now, but I'm going to ask you to do something. I do not want you to ship this around to anybody.
SafireOkay.
NixonI don't want you to Let me decide that after I see the first draft, because you're going to have if if with all I've gone through the agony of preparing the goddamn message and clearing it with everybody.
NixonNow, this thing, I will decide, just you and I alone. You understand?
SafireYep.
NixonAnd uh I'll decide if I'm going to let anybody else see it. I may let Ray take a quick look, but you see if you get it to Ray, and you get it to Len, and then you're going to have to send it over to Richardson,
Nixonand he'll try to write something into it, and you got to send it Ehrlichman and the rest. It's just isn't going to work.
SafireMhm.
NixonI know what needs to go into it, and I'm going to make that decision, and that's going to be it.
SafireOkay.
NixonSo So, don't don't ship this, don't let anybody know what's coming out, just saying, "Gee, you're working on something," and that I'm that's a deep, dark secret, and that's all. And you and I will sweat it out.
SafireRight. Yes, sir.
NixonAbsolutely no copies to anybody, don't discuss it with anybody, don't ask anybody anything unless I direct you to, okay?
SafireI got it completely.
NixonFine, and then we'll say tomorrow, if I could see something around, not first thing, say 10:00. Well, we'll say
NixonI won't need to see it, say 9:30 is better, 9:30, okay?
SafirePerfect.

Also recorded on March 14, 1972

  • 685-012 2:55 PM · 20 min — President Richard M. Nixon and William L. Safire met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:55 pm to 3:15 pm.
  • 021-067 3:15 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 3:15 pm and 4:18 pm.
  • 685-013 3:16 PM · 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:16 pm to 3:24 pm.
  • 685-014 3:24 PM · 56 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:24 pm to 3:25 pm.
  • 685-015 3:25 PM · 47 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Debbie Wright, George H. Mahon, Raymond L. Schafer, Macon T. Edwards, James T. Hazelwood, John E. Nidecker, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:25 pm to 3:31 pm.
  • 685-016 3:31 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:31 pm and 3:37 pm.
  • 685-017 3:31 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:31 pm and 3:37 pm.
  • 685-018 3:37 PM · 14 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Stephen B. Bull, Tricia Nixon Cox, Luci Johnson Nugent, Patrick L. Nugent, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:37 pm to 3:49 pm.

All 54 conversations from March 14, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 021-066, March 14, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 646310132). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/021-066 (accessed November 2, 2026).