{"conversationCode":"022-077","tapeNumber":22,"conversationNumber":77,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-022-077","startDateTime":"1972-04-05T01:45:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-04-05T01:50:00.000Z","startDate":"4-Apr-1972","startTime":"8:45 PM","endDate":"4-Apr-1972","endTime":"8:50 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On April 4, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 8:45 pm to 8:50 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 022-077 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 22-77\n\nDate: April 4, 1972\nTime: 8:45 pm - 8:50 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n[See Conversation No. 329-9]\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Weather\n              -Report\n                   -Kissinger’s call to Adm. Thomas H. Moorer\n                   -Projection\n              -Results\n\n-Shelling\n      -Time\n-Time Of Day\n-Ground Action\n-Weather\n      -Projection\n            -Possible clearing\n                  -Opportunities for air strikes\n-Possible air strike at Haiphong\n      -Plan\n      -Weather\n      -Timing\n      -Possible diplomatic reaction\n      -List of ships in the harbor\n-Nguyen Van Thieu\n      -Kissinger summary\n      -South Vietnamese ambassadors\n            -Talks with other ambassadors\n                  -Demilitarized zone [DMZ] attacks\n      -US ambassadors\n            -The President’s instructions\n-Air attacks\n      -Air Force\n            -Men\n            -Equipment\n-B-3 area\n      -Attacks\n      -Instructions to Moorer\n      -Military Region One [MR 1]\n      -Air sorties\n            -Number\n            -B-52s\n                  -Areas of bombardment\n                         -MR 1\n                  -Authority\n                         -DMZ\n                  -Surface-to-air Missiles [SAMs]\n                  -Moorer\n-Weather","filename":["022-077.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:06:29","tapeEnd":"03:11:29","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"022-076","nextCode":"022-078","transcript":[{"start":0.08,"end":1.86,"text":"Hello."},{"start":1.92,"end":2.83,"text":"Mr. Kissinger."},{"start":3.04,"end":3.31,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":5.33,"end":6.83,"text":"I wonder if you had any report on the weather."},{"start":8.71,"end":11.57,"text":"I just was calling Moorer."},{"start":11.6,"end":12.54,"text":"This is why it took a minute."},{"start":14,"end":18.06,"text":"His report was that it'd be like today."},{"start":18.76,"end":19.5,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":19.52,"end":21.63,"text":"With some holes opening up in the afternoon."},{"start":22.25,"end":23.19,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":23.21,"end":24.31,"text":"It is heartbreaking."},{"start":25.71,"end":27.21,"text":"They cut all the authorities."},{"start":27.47,"end":27.79,"text":"They"},{"start":28.2,"end":30.38,"text":"Got the toughest president they're going to have."},{"start":30.4,"end":33.18,"text":"The goddamn bastards can't go."},{"start":33.22,"end":35.25,"text":"So it's the same thing."},{"start":35.61,"end":37.89,"text":"But they are going to start shelling tonight."},{"start":38.35,"end":39.53,"text":"Yeah, well, that'll help a little."},{"start":40.84,"end":45.24,"text":"Well, that'll be a little shot across the bow, but it's about all."},{"start":47.08,"end":48.58,"text":"Otherwise, no further reports."},{"start":48.66,"end":49.78,"text":"It's night out there now, isn't it?"},{"start":50.28,"end":51.6,"text":"It's day out there now."},{"start":51.62,"end":52.69,"text":"Oh, yeah, it's day, of course."},{"start":52.73,"end":54.61,"text":"It's just started."},{"start":55.69,"end":58.17,"text":"How about the ground action?"},{"start":58.19,"end":58.79,"text":"About the same?"},{"start":59.03,"end":59.73,"text":"About the same."},{"start":64.64,"end":66.76,"text":"But the weather, no projection."},{"start":67.28,"end":69.08,"text":"Well, the projection."},{"start":69.16,"end":70.79,"text":"They think it's going to break any time, huh?"},{"start":71.13,"end":75.87,"text":"Well, they think it's going to clear a little in the afternoon, and they're going to get some strikes in then."},{"start":76.65,"end":76.93,"text":"Right."},{"start":77.06,"end":77.75,"text":"You never know."},{"start":78.63,"end":81.17,"text":"Whenever it breaks, it's going to break fairly fast."},{"start":81.57,"end":83.86,"text":"And when it does, it'll all hell break loose."},{"start":83.96,"end":85.5,"text":"Boy, that's the time to give it to them."},{"start":85.52,"end":85.98,"text":"That's right."},{"start":87.19,"end":87.59,"text":"Okay."},{"start":88.09,"end":90.49,"text":"Well, we can't do anything about it, Henry."},{"start":90.51,"end":91.96,"text":"No, we've just got to..."},{"start":92,"end":95.24,"text":"I think, Mr. President, we've got this thing at the breaking point now."},{"start":95.48,"end":99.72,"text":"The main thing is that I want you to go forward, though, on that Haiphong thing."},{"start":99.74,"end":100.96,"text":"That intrigues me very much."},{"start":100.98,"end":104.35,"text":"Well, we are getting a plan tomorrow morning for a Haiphong strike."},{"start":104.75,"end":104.97,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":105.55,"end":108.17,"text":"I think just popping a couple in there might be useful."},{"start":108.42,"end":109.72,"text":"The weather up there is all right, isn't it?"},{"start":110.68,"end":111.48,"text":"Yes."},{"start":111.5,"end":111.72,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":113.2,"end":115.28,"text":"Well, we can do nothing else."},{"start":115.42,"end":116.55,"text":"Hitting that would be useful."},{"start":117.19,"end":120.23,"text":"Well, I think ideally it would be better a little later."},{"start":120.65,"end":121.23,"text":"Yeah, I know."},{"start":121.31,"end":122.44,"text":"Before the bombing gets settled."},{"start":123.3,"end":123.5,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":123.92,"end":124.64,"text":"Settled in."},{"start":124.84,"end":125.46,"text":"I agree."},{"start":125.64,"end":126.06,"text":"I agree."},{"start":126.1,"end":133.95,"text":"But if we're going to be stuck, Henry, too long here, we can't be stuck in the mud all the time."},{"start":134.19,"end":135.41,"text":"That's right, Mr. President."},{"start":135.47,"end":137.88,"text":"We can't give them much more than 24 more hours."},{"start":137.9,"end":141.48,"text":"Because otherwise... We've got to do something dramatic soon."},{"start":142.4,"end":142.68,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":145.17,"end":145.71,"text":"Well, let's see."},{"start":146.07,"end":146.81,"text":"Just running it out."},{"start":146.85,"end":148.11,"text":"Well, we'll talk about it in the morning."},{"start":148.13,"end":153.7,"text":"But if you hit Haiphong, that'll raise all hell diplomatically and the rest."},{"start":154.17,"end":155.63,"text":"That's right."},{"start":155.69,"end":159.01,"text":"We're getting a list of all the ships that are in there and so forth."},{"start":159.03,"end":159.22,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":160.04,"end":178.36,"text":"I made a little note on the confidential summary you sent in, in which I noted that Pew's South Vietnamese ambassadors were talking to all the ambassadors abroad with regard to the coming across the DMZ, and I ordered that all of our ambassadors do likewise."},{"start":178.38,"end":180.97,"text":"They can get off their fat asses and go"},{"start":181.37,"end":183.63,"text":"and go start talking to people, don't you agree?"},{"start":183.77,"end":184.38,"text":"Absolutely."},{"start":184.86,"end":187.74,"text":"Let's run a huge diplomatic offensive in this respect."},{"start":188.32,"end":189.48,"text":"Right, absolutely."},{"start":190.76,"end":194.23,"text":"I think this is going to be the last spasm for better or worse now."},{"start":194.25,"end":195.87,"text":"Well, it can't be for worse, you know."},{"start":196.03,"end":196.35,"text":"That's right."},{"start":196.37,"end":197.52,"text":"We're not going to say better or worse."},{"start":197.54,"end":200.22,"text":"We'll never get these goddamn Air Force guys to fly."},{"start":200.24,"end":200.34,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":201.57,"end":204.33,"text":"Well, we can't expect them to fly, Henry."},{"start":204.35,"end":207.24,"text":"I mean, let's face it, it's the equipment, not the men."},{"start":207.64,"end":208.12,"text":"It's the equipment."},{"start":208.14,"end":208.88,"text":"These are brave men."},{"start":209.34,"end":211.31,"text":"They're willing to do anything."},{"start":211.49,"end":215,"text":"No, they bought the wrong equipment."},{"start":215.12,"end":221.51,"text":"Yeah, but on the other hand, well, how about concentrating in the B-3 area?"},{"start":221.55,"end":222.35,"text":"That's open, isn't it?"},{"start":222.37,"end":223.07,"text":"That they are doing."},{"start":223.94,"end":231.62,"text":"Could we just tell more in view of the fact it's closed in to give a massive strike to the B-3 area for the next 24 hours?"},{"start":231.7,"end":232.28,"text":"Could we do that?"},{"start":232.66,"end":237.48,"text":"Well, everything that isn't being used in MR-1 is being used in the B-3 area."},{"start":237.52,"end":238.52,"text":"And they're hitting it hard, are they?"},{"start":238.6,"end":238.98,"text":"That's right."},{"start":239,"end":241.57,"text":"They flew about 300 sorties there yesterday."},{"start":241.68,"end":243.36,"text":"That's bound to have some effect, isn't it?"},{"start":243.38,"end":245.41,"text":"Oh, yes, yes, absolutely."},{"start":245.43,"end":246.53,"text":"53s are being used there?"},{"start":247.17,"end":247.77,"text":"Yes."},{"start":247.79,"end":249.85,"text":"Now, what about the 53s above?"},{"start":249.87,"end":252.74,"text":"No, 52s are mostly used in MR1 because they don't need weather."},{"start":252.76,"end":253.8,"text":"I know, but 52s."},{"start":254.28,"end":255.02,"text":"Tell me about the 52s."},{"start":255.06,"end":259.21,"text":"Yeah, I know, but let's use the 52s the other place, too."},{"start":259.57,"end":261.01,"text":"Well, we have given authority."},{"start":262.31,"end":264.7,"text":"You've given authority to use it above the DMZ, have you?"},{"start":264.72,"end":264.98,"text":"Right."},{"start":265.14,"end":266,"text":"All right."},{"start":266.13,"end":266.65,"text":"What?"},{"start":266.67,"end":266.99,"text":"For what?"},{"start":267.15,"end":268.3,"text":"For 35 miles."},{"start":268.7,"end":268.92,"text":"Right."},{"start":269.86,"end":271.28,"text":"But they haven't popped anything there yet."},{"start":271.3,"end":273.84,"text":"No, because they want to do one day of SAMS."},{"start":273.86,"end":275.11,"text":"Oh, yeah, they've got to suppress."},{"start":275.45,"end":275.79,"text":"I see."},{"start":275.83,"end":277.31,"text":"Because of the danger, right."},{"start":277.33,"end":277.45,"text":"Right."},{"start":278.55,"end":285.46,"text":"Well, they've got all the authority they need, and Moore has no complaints on that score, has he now?"},{"start":285.48,"end":287.12,"text":"Well, Mr. President, they are Popeye."},{"start":288.38,"end":288.71,"text":"They are?"},{"start":289.29,"end":289.39,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":289.41,"end":289.51,"text":"Good."},{"start":290.01,"end":290.25,"text":"Good."},{"start":290.67,"end":291.97,"text":"Good."},{"start":291.99,"end":292.97,"text":"Well, okay."},{"start":293.11,"end":294.19,"text":"Right, Mr. President."},{"start":294.23,"end":295.84,"text":"Just pray for the goddamn..."},{"start":296.34,"end":297.98,"text":"A weatherman to get in there, okay?"},{"start":298.24,"end":299.68,"text":"Right, Mr. President."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discuss the stalled military progress in Vietnam caused by poor weather, which has hindered effective air strikes. The two explore options for increasing pressure, including a planned strike on Haiphong and more intensive use of B-52s in the B-3 area and above the DMZ. Nixon emphasizes the necessity of a broad diplomatic offensive by U.S. ambassadors to highlight the North Vietnamese aggression across the DMZ and reaffirms his desire to maintain aggressive military momentum.","topics":["Vietnam War","Military Strategy","Air Strikes","Weather","Haiphong","Diplomatic Relations","B-52 Operations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T02:24:05.711Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","military-strategy","air-strikes","weather","haiphong","diplomatic-relations","b-52-operations"],"audioDurationSec":301,"audioFiles":[{"file":"022-077.mp3","bytes":7214810,"durationSec":300.55,"bitrate":192044,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:27.521Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/022-077.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/022-077","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/22/conversation-022-077","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}