{"conversationCode":"022-080","tapeNumber":22,"conversationNumber":80,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-022-080","startDateTime":"1972-04-05T14:27:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-04-05T14:32:00.000Z","startDate":"5-Apr-1972","startTime":"9:27 AM","endDate":"5-Apr-1972","endTime":"9:32 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Kissinger, Henry A.; Moorer, Thomas H. (Adm.); Nixon, Richard M. (President);","description":"On April 5, 1972, Henry A. Kissinger, Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone from 9:27 am to 9:32 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 022-080 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 22-80\n\nDate: April 5, 1972\nTime: 9:27 am - 9:32 am\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nHenry A. Kissinger talked with Adm. Thomas H. Moorer.\n\n[See Conversation No. 330-7B]\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Kissinger’s meeting with the President\n                -Briefing by Gen. John W. Vogt, Jr.\n                      -Air attacks\n          -Air commander\n                -The President’s concerns\n                -Experience\n                -[Forename unknown] Macnichol [sp?]\n                      -Background\n                            -Moorer’s view\n                                  -Thailand\n                -Recommendation\n                -Gen. Lucius DuB. Clay, Jr.\n                -Vogt\n                -Moorer’s recommendation\n                      -Talk with the Air Force Chief of Staff\n          -Naval bombardment\n                -Destroyers\n          -B-52 strikes\n                -“Iron hand” aircraft\n                      -Vogt\n\nThe President talked with Moorer at an unknown time between 9:27 am and 9:32 am.\n\n          -B-52 strikes\n                -The President’s instructions\n                     -Impact\n                     -Altitude\n                     -Number of sorties\n                     -B-3 area\n                     -Increases\n                           -Reasons\n                     -Weather\n                     -Technical problems\n                     -B-3 area\n                     -Number of missions\n                           -Region One\n                           -Additional aircraft\n                                 -Timing\n          -Air commander\n                -The President’s view\n                     -Experience\n\n                     -Need for change\n                     -Imagination\n                -Melvin R. Laird\n                -Moorer recommendation\n                     -Time","filename":["022-080.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:11:47","tapeEnd":"03:16:18","participantsList":["Kissinger, Henry A.","Moorer, Thomas H. (Adm.)","Nixon, Richard M. (President)"],"prevCode":"022-079","nextCode":"022-081","transcript":[{"start":0.69,"end":2.07,"text":"Good morning, sir."},{"start":2.35,"end":2.59,"text":"Hello."},{"start":3.31,"end":4.55,"text":"Tom, it's Henry."},{"start":4.57,"end":5.11,"text":"Oh, Henry, yeah."},{"start":5.28,"end":10.76,"text":"I'm sitting here with the president, and we were going over the superb briefing that Vogue gave us."},{"start":10.92,"end":11.24,"text":"Right."},{"start":11.32,"end":12.18,"text":"Gave us this morning."},{"start":12.36,"end":14.99,"text":"Yeah, well, we tried to explain the air situation to you, Henry."},{"start":15.01,"end":16.27,"text":"Well, it was very well done."},{"start":16.97,"end":23.68,"text":"But the concern that the president has is whether we don't really need..."},{"start":23.7,"end":23.9,"text":"Yes."},{"start":24.28,"end":28.92,"text":"The president raised the point that he wants an experienced air commander out there."},{"start":29.6,"end":32.16,"text":"We understand you've got a new guy out there now."},{"start":32.98,"end":33.72,"text":"Yeah, McNichol."},{"start":34.26,"end":36.1,"text":"Yeah, but he's got no experience in this."},{"start":36.12,"end":37.95,"text":"We've got all our trips riding on this."},{"start":39.05,"end":49.06,"text":"Well, he came from, I think he's had experience in the sense that he, all the forces down in Thailand are under his command, you know, and he's been working with them."},{"start":49.08,"end":50.91,"text":"But fine, I..."},{"start":50.97,"end":54.81,"text":"But we would like a recommendation, the President would like a recommendation by noon."},{"start":55.15,"end":58.43,"text":"of who the best man would be who could take this battle over now."},{"start":58.69,"end":59.01,"text":"All right."},{"start":59.15,"end":60.17,"text":"During this offensive."},{"start":60.47,"end":60.81,"text":"Fine."},{"start":60.87,"end":63.44,"text":"Well, I'll certainly get one."},{"start":63.66,"end":66,"text":"I'd be glad to, and I think that the President's right."},{"start":66.36,"end":76.14,"text":"He's absolutely determined to get vigor into this campaign and to get the most experienced man, or maybe we should get Clay back out there."},{"start":77.24,"end":79.58,"text":"Well, we could get Clay, and we could consider Johnny Vogt."},{"start":79.98,"end":81.63,"text":"We'd be delighted with Vogue."},{"start":81.65,"end":82.99,"text":"That's another possibility."},{"start":83.07,"end":83.45,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":83.47,"end":83.79,"text":"All right."},{"start":83.91,"end":84.63,"text":"We'll get you one."},{"start":84.81,"end":86.28,"text":"Because he knows what we want."},{"start":87.26,"end":91.72,"text":"But can you give us a recommendation by noon, and can we get him on a plane then soon?"},{"start":92.1,"end":93.25,"text":"Yes."},{"start":93.35,"end":96.27,"text":"I'll talk to the chief staff of the Air Force immediately."},{"start":96.55,"end":98.21,"text":"Good."},{"start":99.36,"end":104.21,"text":"Otherwise, we were delighted with what the destroyers are doing."},{"start":104.27,"end":105.97,"text":"The president's very pleased with it."},{"start":105.99,"end":107.15,"text":"Well, we're going to do more."},{"start":107.41,"end":108.62,"text":"We're going to send some more down there."},{"start":109.1,"end":114.97,"text":"And if we can step up the B-52 strikes, that's a little worrisome that they are flying so little."},{"start":115.56,"end":121.21,"text":"Yeah, well, they flew, see now, did Vought explain to you that the... Yeah, he explained the Iron Hand."},{"start":121.43,"end":122.11,"text":"Iron Hand, all right."},{"start":122.13,"end":123.45,"text":"Yeah, he explained that properly."},{"start":123.53,"end":129.12,"text":"Now, we're sending more Iron Hand aircraft out to do, because occasionally they've had a depression."},{"start":129.14,"end":137.38,"text":"The President is... Say, Tom, the thing I want you to do, now on the B-52s in this instance, they're, for psychological reasons,"},{"start":137.73,"end":140.79,"text":"Now, let's forget the Cloud Clever and all the rest and so forth."},{"start":141.34,"end":151.22,"text":"Have them fly at 95,000 or 110,000 feet and drop their goddamn bombs in the boondocks, but get a hell of a lot of sorties flown by B-52s today."},{"start":151.34,"end":151.87,"text":"Is that clear?"},{"start":152.11,"end":152.49,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":152.51,"end":153.97,"text":"Get those 52s flying."},{"start":154.01,"end":156.81,"text":"Now, at least let them do it around the B-3 area."},{"start":156.83,"end":157.85,"text":"That's open, isn't it?"},{"start":157.87,"end":158.21,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":158.25,"end":158.77,"text":"They have been."},{"start":158.79,"end":159.91,"text":"Yes, I know they have been."},{"start":160.25,"end":160.53,"text":"All right."},{"start":161,"end":166,"text":"I don't want to see another report with 16 sorties or B-52s."},{"start":165.98,"end":194,"text":"i want the enemy to know that we're really letting them have it so so get them in there now i just we've got to have it for psychological reasons we can't have this what appears to be a pusillanimous effort now i know that there are brave men out there they're risking their lives they're fighting all that sort of thing but up to this point you know and i know and i know the reason it's weather and their technical reasons and this and that and the other thing but we have to have some sort of massive strike in the next"},{"start":194.63,"end":196.92,"text":"12 hours, 24 hours."},{"start":197.26,"end":198.04,"text":"You see what I mean?"},{"start":198.08,"end":199.48,"text":"You just got to have one."},{"start":199.98,"end":202.14,"text":"And it doesn't have to be in that area of the battle even."},{"start":202.64,"end":204.56,"text":"Put the damn thing down on the B-3 area."},{"start":204.95,"end":208.11,"text":"Put the 52s in there and just knock the bejesus out of them."},{"start":208.13,"end":210.77,"text":"You'll hit something."},{"start":210.93,"end":211.83,"text":"You just got to do it."},{"start":211.99,"end":216.06,"text":"They flew their maximum number of missions yesterday."},{"start":216.78,"end":220.94,"text":"They only flew 16 in the military Region 1, but they flew their 50 missions."},{"start":221.72,"end":224.82,"text":"They're flying 50 missions a day, which is their maximum."},{"start":224.88,"end":227.09,"text":"As you know, we've sent some more planes and pretty soon they'll be..."},{"start":227.1,"end":227.97,"text":"When will they be out there?"},{"start":227.99,"end":230.05,"text":"Is it next month or two months from now?"},{"start":230.07,"end":230.23,"text":"No, sir."},{"start":230.25,"end":231.25,"text":"They're on their way out there."},{"start":231.35,"end":232.61,"text":"How long does it take them to fly?"},{"start":232.63,"end":234.75,"text":"They ought to be able to fly in a couple of days."},{"start":234.78,"end":236.22,"text":"Yeah, okay."},{"start":236.24,"end":237.14,"text":"Well, okay."},{"start":237.16,"end":243.15,"text":"Now, on the commander, I've got to get the most experienced, tough commander, not as an observer, but in charge."},{"start":243.23,"end":248.87,"text":"Now, let me say, let me say, I've studied warfare enough to know, and this is the hardest thing you do, but"},{"start":249.24,"end":252.34,"text":"More wars have been lost by not changing commanders than changing them."},{"start":252.71,"end":263.04,"text":"And you've got to have the most experienced and also a fellow with imagination and verve who will take the orders and get him the hell out there as fast as we can."},{"start":263.52,"end":265.18,"text":"And I'll work the thing out with Laird."},{"start":265.4,"end":265.7,"text":"Okay?"},{"start":265.98,"end":266.52,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":266.54,"end":266.8,"text":"All right."},{"start":266.82,"end":268.2,"text":"You'll give us a name by noon, will you?"},{"start":268.43,"end":268.91,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":268.93,"end":269.97,"text":"All right."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and Admiral Thomas Moorer discussed the urgent need to increase the intensity of U.S. air operations in Vietnam, specifically focusing on expanding B-52 sorties to achieve psychological impact. Nixon expressed dissatisfaction with current leadership and mandated the immediate appointment of an experienced, aggressive air commander to oversee the campaign. Moorer committed to providing a recommendation for this new commander by noon and working with the Air Force Chief of Staff to expedite the deployment of additional aircraft.","topics":["Vietnam War","B-52 strikes","Military command","Air power","Presidential directive"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T02:24:22.401Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","b-52-strikes","military-command","air-power","presidential-directive"],"audioDurationSec":271,"audioFiles":[{"file":"022-080.mp3","bytes":6511385,"durationSec":271.25,"bitrate":192041,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:27.521Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/022-080.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/022-080","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/22/conversation-022-080","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}