Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 22 › Conversation 022-084

Nixon phone call with Colson on ITT hearings and Political strategy

Wednesday, April 5, 1972 · 10:00 AM–10:05 AM ET · White House Telephone · 8 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Colson, Charles W.; [Unknown person(s)]Conversation022-084 on Tape 22 (tape position 03:16:39–03:24:11)StartWednesday, April 5, 1972 at 10:00 AMEndWednesday, April 5, 1972 at 10:05 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 022-084 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417193133 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Charles Colson discuss the political strategy surrounding the ongoing International Telephone and Telegraph (ITT) hearings and the potential for a Democratic-led filibuster. They express concern over the possibility of a quorum-denying walkout by Senators Edward Kennedy and John Tunney and emphasize the importance of maintaining Republican unity to frame the inquiry as a purely partisan vendetta. Nixon stresses the need to keep Democratic committee members like James Eastland motivated to force a vote, while Colson notes that public and press interest in the hearings is beginning to wane.

Audio

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NARA Description

On April 5, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, and unknown person(s) talked on the telephone from 10:00 am to 10:05 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 022-084 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 22-84

Date: April 5, 1972
Time: 10:00 am - 10:05 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Charles W. Colson.

[See Conversation No. 330-12]

     International Telephone and Telegraph [ITT] case
           -News summary report
                -Hearings
                      -Republicans
                -United Press International [UPI] dispatch
                      -Wallace H. Johnson

[The President conferred with an unknown person at an unknown time between 10:00 am and
10:05 am.]

******************************************************************************

[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 03/01/2018.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[022-084-w001]
[Duration: 3s]

     Food order

******************************************************************************

[End of conferral]

     ITT case
          -News summary report
                -UPI dispatch
                      -Johnson
                            -Source
                                  -Hugh Scott
                                       -Press secretary
                                  -Charles McC. Mathias, Jr.
                            -Inaccuracies
          -Hearings
                -Roman L. Hruska’s strategy
Show the rest of the log (69 more lines)
                      -Vote
                -Democrats’ strategy
                      -Filibuster and walkout
                      -James O. Eastland
                      -Quorum
                            -Edward M. Kennedy and John V. Tunney
                            -Clark MacGregor report
                            -Number
                -Scott
                      -Compromise
                -Timing
                -Michael J. Mansfield
                      -Statements
                            -Reasons
                      -Lloyd M. Bentsen
                      -Talk with Kennedy
                            -Campaign financing
                            -Public response
                -Democrats
                      -George A. Smathers’s role
                      -Mansfield
          -Press coverage
                -Commentary on the fcase
                -Bill Gill

          -National Broadcasting Company [NBC]
          -Talk with John A. Scali
               -Public response
-Kennedy
     -Perseverance
     -Staff
           -[Forename unknown] Foug [sp?] and [Forename unknown] Epstein
-Hearings
     -Eastland
     -John N. Mitchell
     -Eastland
           -Supporters
                 -Robert C. Byrd
                 -John L. McClellan
                 -Samuel J. Ervin, Jr.
           -Rules
                 -Proxies
           -Filibuster
                 -Kennedy and Tunney
     -Mansfield comments
     -Tunney
           -Possible talk with Eastland and Mansfield
     -Republicans
           -Scott
                 -Trip to the People’s Republic of China [PRC]
                 -Staff
           -Mathias
                 -Supposed statement
           -Defections
                 -Problems
     -Partisanship
     -Robert H. Finch remark
     -Timetable
     -Witnesses
           -William R. Merriam
           -Unknown ITT employee
           -Susan Lichtman
                 -Press conference
           -Robert C. Wilson
                 -Johnson’s talk with Colson
           -Edwin Reinecke
           -William E. Timmons

                     -Peter M. Flanigan

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Good morning, Mr. President.
Hi, Chuck.
I noticed something in the news summary this morning to the effect that the Republicans have decided not to close the ICT hearings and so forth, the UPI dispatch.
Yes, sir.
Is that the decision?
Well, no.
That may be the outcome, but that is not the decision.
That is a story that I caught it yesterday when it came up with the wires and had Wally Johnson go up.
He traced it to either Scott's press guy, and Scott, you know, has been temporizing from time to time, or to Mathias, but it's an inaccurate story.
The decision that Ruska has made is to just hang in tight and push like hell for a vote tomorrow.
The problem is that the technique the Democrats are going to use is to filibuster and then leave, thereby denying a quorum.
That's their present strategy.
And our problem is to keep Eastland beefed up so that he pushes for a vote while they're still there.
If Kennedy and Tunney walk out... You don't have a quorum.
That's what we're worried about.
Takes nine for a quorum.
Clark reported this morning on this.
At the moment, we have eight votes with us if we keep them all there.
Or eight we think we can hold.
Seven in any event.
But the problem is if those two fellows take a walk, we've got a difficulty...
in the, in forcing it to a vote.
Now that's, that's what, that situation is what makes Scott talk compromise.
Yeah.
And of course, there just isn't any compromise that really is the strategy then if you don't, you just go on to what part of that?
They would go back in on Tuesday.
Now, Mansfield's statements yesterday I think are very helpful.
Why is he saying that?
I can't figure it out, Mr. President, because a week ago he was on a very different tack.
And I think he, he may feel, I think he's a pretty good politician.
pretty good instincts.
He may feel that they're overplaying this.
You know, Lloyd Benson, I learned very confidentially, had gone to Teddy Kennedy and said, for God's sake, lay off.
You know, you're really going to open the whole Pandora's box of campaign financing, and you're going to overkill this thing, and the public's going to begin to take it as, you know, just a political vendetta, and stop pushing so hard.
And some of the Democrats are
A fellow like Benston should damn well be worried about his bank.
Sure, that's why he went in there, and we've made arrangements to have George Smethurst talk to a few people to try to put a little back pressure on the Democrats.
I think that may be what Mansfield is sensing.
There's just...
beginning mr president i don't want to build too much hope on this but there's just beginning to be a little bit of that reaction in the press i saw that in the news summary this morning well those of course the stories we worked on but i there are some others that i've noticed that are beginning to just change the tone a little bit the idea that they haven't really proven proven anything and how long are they going to keep this up and it's it's
Bill Gill from NBC told Skelly Monday, he said, God, I just hate to run pieces on this because I know that my audience is getting bored by it and there just isn't anything there.
And that may be what Mansfield is sensing.
But Kennedy is going to hang with this thing and just fight it to the death.
He thinks he's got one.
I don't think he thinks he's got one.
He's got Staff, Flug, and Epstein telling him every day that he's on the verge of the biggest breakthrough.
But the fight tomorrow, Eastland is the key, and Mitchell's back in town.
Well, Eastland... God damn it, there's Eastland.
He's got some friends, hasn't he?
He's got on the committee.
It isn't just Eastland, but there are two or three other Democrats.
Oh, yeah, Bird.
Of course, McClellan won't be here.
Irvin will not be here.
They don't allow proxies.
He's not allowing proxies, and he is going to adhere to the rules of the committee, which has been to not restrict...
adequate discussion of motions, which permits Tunney and Kennedy to filibuster if they want to.
And that is their strategy.
Now, there may be some significance to the Mansfield comments.
Somebody could just get on Tunney and Kennedy.
Eastland and Mansfield may have talked.
I have to assume that or that Mansfield is sensing a little shift in the mood.
Yeah, yeah.
We're all right on the Republican side, except Scott, by disposition, and...
Of course, Matthias.
Scott Damon is going off to China in about ten days.
Yes, he is.
So he ought to cooperate by getting this done before he leaves.
They ought to appeal to him on that thing.
Well, he's fine when we talk to him, Mr. President.
Then his people get to his staff, isn't it?
He's got left-wingers there, too.
He's got a couple of guys there.
It's always a question, you see.
These fellows, they've got these young liberal guys in their staffs.
They're pushing their bosses, and their bosses are weak men, and their weak men go along with the strong men and the staff.
I know what this all the time is.
I've seen it many times.
We had a report this weekend, which you may have noted in the news somewhere.
You did note in the news somewhere.
You said, to me, one Republican senator is saying that we've got to get to the bottom of this.
Who was that?
Mathias.
I'm convinced.
I haven't been able to trace it.
Well, that's the kind of thing.
We don't have anything serious, though, of Republican defections.
You see, the main thing Republicans have to do here, whatever their private doubts may be, they have got to indicate this is a political investigation.
The moment a Republican deserts, we then have problems.
We've got a different ballgame.
It isn't a totally different ballgame, because then you can say he's no good.
But nevertheless...
It's very important that what has helped up to this point, that it has been Democrats versus Republicans.
Yeah, what I meant is it isn't the first we'll try.
I mean, one of the things that was so stupid, I mean, which he didn't probably intend, was where Bob Finch got off some crack that it was a corrosive, having a corrosive effect.
Yeah, Jesus.
Well, you know, he just shouldn't have said that.
All of us have just got to take the idea that this is a political thing.
Okay.
Oh, yes.
Anyway.
That's the deal.
Well, anyway, I just wanted to see what the score was.
And then tomorrow, I suppose, if they do decide to go on, when do they go on?
The following Tuesday again?
They will go on either Monday or Tuesday, Mr. President.
Probably Tuesday.
Who's their next witnesses?
Who have they got then?
Well, the ones they want.
Apparently, there is a compromise package that may be offered that would limit it to Merriam, another employee of the ITT office, Susan Lichtman.
She's the secretary.
And she was helpful to us in terms of discrediting the memo, but she's a left-wing Democrat, came down here and had that press conference in the office of the D.C. Democratic chairman.
I know.
So she isn't going to be particularly... Well, I told you when I saw who she was, I mean, she's just a little...
left-wing Jewish girl.
Oh, sure.
That's exactly right.
She's not going to help us.
Don't worry about that.
No, and she didn't.
And, of course, the press played the worst stuff, she said.
They'll also try to bring in, I think, on a final agreed list, Wally Johnson told me this morning, that they would include Bob Wilson, which would be a lousy witness.
Yeah, but he'll be stupid.
And Reineke.
Yeah.
There are five or six they would like.
Of course, they'd like Towns, and they'd like...
Fine again, but we just won't bend on that one.
Okay, fine, Chuck.
Thank you.
We'll stay with it, sir.
Thank you.

Also recorded on April 5, 1972

  • 330-008 9:55 AM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:55 am and 9:57 am.
  • 022-081 9:56 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 9:56 am.
  • 022-082 9:57 AM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone from 9:57 am to 9:58 am.
  • 330-009 9:57 AM · 40 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:57 am to 9:58 am.
  • 330-010 9:58 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:58 am and 10:00 am.
  • 330-011 9:58 AM · 14 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:58 am and 10:00 am.
  • 022-083 9:59 AM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 9:59 am.
  • 330-012 10:00 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:00 am to 10:05 am.

All 44 conversations from April 5, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 022-084, April 5, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417193133). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/022-084 (accessed November 15, 2026).