Nixon phone call with Kissinger on Vietnam War and US-Soviet Relations

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Hello.

We got away from the dinner.

I just wanted to get a more complete report on your reaction to your meeting.

Well, the first thing he did is to, he came in here like a treasure cat.

He had a message from the other side.

Yeah, this was after he'd seen your message to Brown's office.

Oh, yeah.

Which was, and that message was,

in reply to what I had told him at noon on the 13th.

Oh, yeah.

What I had told him at noon on the 13th was in effect nothing.

Right.

It was just contributory garbage, which said, as I told you, we're willing to find a compromise between their position and ours, provided they have a complete protection of military operations.

Right.

And so...

Well, their reply was a sort of a threat, because their reply is a day later than the one they sent to Paris.

This is the Russian reply.

No, that's the Hanoi reply.

Hanoi replied to Russia, which they transmitted to us.

Oh, I see.

And that, in effect, was a sort of a wailing thing, saying,

They had always believed private meetings and plenary meetings had to reinforce each other.

All they wanted to do was make sure that people could reinforce it.

Well, I understand.

They only pointed to us.

They were very aggressive, but they are really valiant.

So in effect, they left themselves wide open.

to say, all right, if you come on the 24th privately, we'll come on the 27th publicly, and we'll announce the public meeting before the private one takes place.

Right.

Which is the proposition he had worked out anyway.

Right.

So that was the confession.

Did you tell Dobrynin that?

Yes, I told him to the president.

Did he think that was reasonable?

Oh, yes.

But frankly, Mr. President, I don't talk to Dobrynin anymore.

If it was reasonable, I'm telling him that the president has made the following decision.

I said, this miserable little country is not going to destroy two American presidents.

No, we'll destroy this country first.

That's what I said.

Before this country does that, we will destroy it.

And the fact of life, Anatole has not argued about it.

He doesn't know how true it is.

And he doesn't argue about it.

That's the fascinating thing.

And so I said, also, if the private meeting doesn't take place, I'm going to tell you honestly, it will never take place if we don't act.

And so he said, well, what if you had the plenary meeting on the 20th?

I said, I don't know, let's not play games.

If private meeting 24th, plenary on the 27th, but if they want to send somebody, that was also in their method.

Right.

The message is that they are now debating in their Politburo whether perhaps their foreign minister could come to Moscow to meet me.

They do have a problem about traveling to Paris while there are no meetings.

Travel to Paris?

I don't care.

But then he said well about these attacks.

He said, I hope to God you're not going to continue them all week long.

He said, can you give me a promise that there won't be any further escalation until after you get the reply from Hanoi?

I said, that's right.

I said, until after we get the reply from Hanoi, but after that we can't do the reply.

But I said, we're going to continue bombing within the limits that have been established in North Vietnam.

I just tell him what those limits were.

And oh, he was, he said, well, then he said, well, are you coming to Moscow?

I said, and I had to follow instructions because Vietnam is good.

And then my teacher was such a doctor.

And then he confirmed to others, he said, we would like some of the food to be prepared today.

Well, what if the chairman, after all, the chairman of the country, probably wants to write another issue, then you have to be courteous with him.

Well, I don't, because I was the president of the United States, and he has given me absolute authority.

Chuck, if you've ever known him, you've heard him.

This thing is not my granddad.

He must be present for it, and he must be present for losing it.

Of course, Mr. President, I think it helps us that you determine for yourself the mere fact that we are doing this puts us into a better position, either to prella or critic, which are now going to spring up or to move into a type of conflict.

And if we said, all right, we have now agreed on the first and second right, we will do the attack.

And we will discuss it further and greatly later.

We can't force them into a hell of a lot more than that.

No.

Particularly at this very minute, we're bombing them again.

Are we?

Yeah.

Are we hitting them?

The other strike got off.

The second strike got off, and the third will get off in a couple of hours.

That's for the truck parks we're going for?

Yeah, yeah.

And there's some trucks there, I hope.

They're supposed to be picked up by trucks.

I don't know.

Well, that's more than we get in a month of this whole treatment trail.

Sure.

And I think the shock to them, Mr. President, I think the clear fact that on a day, while attacks on Haifa are still going on, he comes slaughtering and pleading for a meeting, and pleading with me to come to Moscow, indicates that these people are a lot more eager for this kind of treatment.

Well, he, he, well, the Russians are.

You just don't know, though.

You know whether he's still reflecting what they and Moscow think of abstractly made I believe they should be because I'll tell you you you may think I'm kidding about it, but I'll call

Strauss over myself.

He's a good friend of mine.

I'll tell him to break up this goddamn thing and use my name if necessary.

We'll do anything to destroy Brock.

Anything.

That's one thing I'm sure of.

Mr. Green is a member of the Central Committee.

He does not act without instructions.

But I think he would have had instructions by this time.

It was nine o'clock when he came over.

I'm sure they can plan about him doing it, and he must know what they want anyway, even if he doesn't have the talent.

Of course, without him, anyway.

But leaving that one aside, the mere fact that for the first time in eight years, John was labyrinth over them.

Okay, well, anyway, as it turned out, it's a damn good thing, Henry, we got the strikes off, isn't it?

For once, things are breaking right.

It is a good thing that they gave us the message this morning so that we could use that as a pretext.

Yeah.

I mean, the message saying they were going to break off calls.

That's right.

Oh, that they were delaying the call.

Well, yeah.

And the second thing is lucky that we got the strike done today and not tomorrow.

I think that is true as well.

Well, there it is, actually.

Now, incidentally, Orrin Rogers, I hadn't talked to him long.

We were waiting for about a minute or so.

I said, look, I've got this stuff I'm working on all day.

He said, well, I realize it.

He says, I think I'll take on the critics.

I said, fine.

That's just what we need.

Now, so I'm going to take that whole thing, that whole batch.

I want to see the letter you prepared, plus the talking points.

And I may sort of rewrite it and strengthen it a little.

You know what I mean?

Give it?

What?

Oh, is it?

Well, did you see if it could be held or if it isn't on?

Well, if it's on, it's on.

It's still good.

I think it's in very strong shape.

It's in good shape.

It's in very good shape.

The only thing, you got in the stuff about the private property.

I got all this stuff in to dictate it to me, and I've included your own piece of stuff you dictated after the leaders' meeting.

I really think it covers the whole thing.

It covers the whole thing.

I think it does.

i think i don't know for whatever reason but probably because he realizes there's no choice but bill uh bill says well he says uh that he's gotten in his state department people it's my great surprise that he had 18 he says now what the hell would you do they say they talked about well that you've done this what would you do now they all said well you got to do what you're doing so maybe maybe some people in there just realize that uh

We're, you know, up against the hard spot.

That's what I noticed in the traffic.

We do have everyone pulling together in the mid-saddle.

I think now we're going to pull it out.

If the South Vietnamese don't pull out, then it's going to be quiet all over South Vietnam today.

Quiet?

Yeah.

No attack in the headlock.

Well, we may have scared them today.

Well, at any rate, whether we scare them or not, I can't really judge them.

But I do know that every day that they don't attack gives our guys a chance to catch their breath.

Well, also, certainly our goddamn Air Force is still attacking, isn't it?

Our Air Force?

Yeah.

With this Biden strike into the north, they threw 400 stories in the south.

And what's forgotten is that the, I've sent that over to Bill, is that without reasoning, the Air Force is also flying a lot of sorties.

About 50% of hours.

So they are hitting it.

Well, certainly, Henry, they must be hitting something.

Well, Mr. President, they claim that you have counted 10,000 bodies up to now.

Yeah.

If you cut it in half, there must be another 5,000 that they have killed that we don't find.

Well, I'll tell you, they're being punished.

Heavy casualties.

If they don't make it this time, they're not going to come back.

The point is that we have to realize that our whole card

Here's the blockade.

However, that's why you've got to get it settled with the Russians now.

I don't want a meeting.

You see, when you meet with them, it's either got to be on the way to settlement or we blockade.

You see, that's the one thing I'm concerned about these bastards.

they will filibuster you.

Right.

He understands that, doesn't he?

God, I mean, we can't go there with Russian tanks and Russian guns killing South Vietnamese and Americans.

Hell no, we're not going to go.

We won't go.

It isn't just a reasonable summit.

It means there ain't going to be no meeting.

That's what he's got to understand.

And that you can do.

So you've got a few cards to play yourself, isn't it?

Well, I think we... You know, when I say we keep on moving, I don't mean to... Keep on?

We're going to make it.

Assuming it's out there.

But there's no time to...

They may be stronger than you think.

Well, so far, Mr. President...

It's been three weeks now.

The actions have been going on three weeks.

They have not achieved one of their one major objectives.

When it started, we said to ourselves that they'd take three of both of them, but now they're not doing that.

They've not yet taken one.

Pretty good, isn't it?

Well, in any event,

You would be going if the President's client went, you know.

Yes, I suggested moving in a day, but he said there's a meeting of the college bureau on Sunday, so it would be very inconvenient to say anything.

Move it back a day?

Which way?

The third day.

Oh, hell no.

Go in.

In the meantime, though, you think our hands are tied now?

Until when?

Until the week?

Well, no, we can bomb the retreats out of them all over the North Sea now, except for the Hanoi and Napa.

Because you, in effect, have said we would not bomb there.

Is that what you told us?

That's right.

But how about naval action?

We can go up and down the coast, but not beyond the 20th Amendment.

That's what we, in effect, have said.

Well, that's all right, too.

We'll just... Mr. President, that gets every port of North Vietnam except by phone.

Yeah.

We...

But on the other hand, that allows Abrams to do what he wants to do, concentrate his air power in the battle area.

We've given quite a shock up in that area.

That's right.

They'll know.

They know what the situation is.

Why do you think, though, they will interpret Henry, what we can do, and what our stop is going to be?

protests or something.

See, that's what worries me.

No, no, no.

They know we're talking to the Russians.

And after all, we are only stopping something that we've only done one day.

We're continuing everything else.

I expect we might come back another day.

Exactly.

Has it been carried on the news yet?

Yeah.

Strike?

Everything.

Ha, ha.

What are they saying about it?

Squealing?

Well, they're just reporting a wave.

They've touched the first wave.

They're describing

It's wave after wave of flames.

You see, they can't see the B-52, and they dropped a million pounds of bombs.

What?

A million pounds of bombs.

Did they have their calibrators fit?

Yes, they have.

You think they really hit something this time, don't you?

Well, actually, we now have the photographs.

They hit something last time, too.

Yeah.

This time, they probably hit a hell of a lot, don't you think?

Oh, yes, they have.

At this time, they did it visually.

Oh, the weather was good enough?

Yes, they did it with radar, visually.

Of course, you want to remember Johnson bombed them for years.

But when President Johnson never had a strategy, he was sort of picking planes.

He'd go in with 50 planes, 20 planes.

I bet you we will have had more planes over there in one day than Johnson had in a month.

Really?

Really.

But that has more impact, too.

It's a shock treatment.

The only thing I regret is that when we made this plan, we didn't take out the power plants.

The power plants, that can be even more alarming.

Well, they have a power plant that they can install to prevent these fires.

What do you mean?

I meant the ones that said high noise, without all their lights.

well it's probably a pretty good strike

World War I and II, though, we used to have 1,000 planes.

Yeah, but these planes, but these planes, each plane can carry about 10 times the load of a plane.

Well, anyway, hold on.

I think we've got Bill on salvo here.

We'll take a hard line.

Mr. President, even if some protests start next week, we've got to take hold.

Well, in fact, you can rush it.

We blow that one.

That's when it really... Of course, if we blow that one, you realize you're going to say that we're not going to summon it.

But that's... No, but maybe when they blow it... And still go on.

And still go to summon, but that's supposed to get a settlement that's not guaranteed.

Oh, that.

Well, it's...

My assessment is that the chances are 50-50, but we can't go any slower than that.

But at any rate, it's a good old car to have.

Oh, right.

That's the reason why you're going.

Yeah.

Well, also, we've got a chance to work on it, too.

If you understand, if they don't show, after you meet the Russians, don't you agree?

The Russians have got to understand that, and also, you've got to understand that, too.

Well, I just, I don't know, I just have a feeling, Henry, that the

strategy which you and I both agree on, but keeping the screws on is the right one.

I know everybody thinks it's too hawkish, too unreasonable, and so forth, but what the hell else can you do?

Well, the fleet

The police shakes them because they think it's a blockade.

And they're right.

This time we aren't fooling them.

We've got enough to do with them.

We have more still coming out there.

Who cares?

One of them is going to be there.

Monday and Andre are going to be there.

They need you to get that 96-footer.

What you can do is pour it in every place you can.

pour it down, wherever the weather is, just bomb the hell out of it.

I would think they'd be tearing the hell out of that, out of the I-cord.

I don't think they're tearing up the Panhandle.

I don't think they brought that stuff to the 26th Secretary of the House of Representatives.

In the Panhandle?

Yeah.

The cumulative effect of that is what they're planning on.

Abrams has got the horses.

About himself.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, we finished one Pan American one again.

They've been out of the week.

God, I love them, but Jesus Christ.

The organization, they're just lovely people, but

They just haven't got it, have they?

What do you think?

Except for Brazil.

Well, anyway, we'll see.

In the morning, you'll give me a...

I'm going over to the Pentagon to get a full wrap-up of this today.

Yeah, on the Rogers thing, I told him to give me a call if he had any thoughts.

But he's all set for the hard line.

I just...

anymore you think we want to feed him let's give it right because you know let him go out i mean i don't think we should overdo it now i think well he won't he won't overjoy you know that but i meant it just it'll be whatever he says won't sound as hard as blair says that's the that's the reason his thing is good okay thank you

Nixon phone call with Kissinger on Vietnam War and US-Soviet Relations

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Also recorded on April 15, 1972

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Nixon phone call with Kissinger on Vietnam War and US-Soviet Relations

AI Summary

Audio

NARA Description

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on April 15, 1972

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Cite this conversation