Conversation 022-142

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Yeah.

Well, how was church today?

Pretty good.

Actually, it's never very good.

I don't know whether you got any report, but the strikes yesterday were exceptionally effective.

Exceptionally effective.

The Pentagon's really jumping up and down.

It's the best they've ever had in the war.

even though we did cut it some because of Abrams, but they did it visually and they just knocked the hell out of stuff.

I mean, it's going to have its usual repercussions, but nevertheless, we left our calling card in a very effective way this time.

That's great.

Is that the ones by Haiphong or all around?

I mean, particularly there.

Well, everything, the truck parks, the

Oil storage, particularly.

They just knocked the hell out of it.

And the Navy shell, the shore batteries.

And they've left a pretty good calling card.

Now, of course, we're knocking it off, assuming that Henry's trip goes on.

Yeah.

For a week, but we're not telling them why.

Nobody in the government knows why.

Yeah.

I talked to Rogers last night, and he's prepared to take a strong line, a hard line, he said.

And his testimony's so good.

just try to keep him stiffened up through Monday.

But I think he realizes that there's no other choice now.

You know what I mean?

And as he said, he thought he ought to attack the attackers.

And of course, I think he should, because none of them know the other card we're playing.

You can see that in their attacks.

They're afraid.

You know, one thing that they're doing, I mean, the most stupid thing was

That poor idiot Humphrey saying the President should immediately ask the Security Council of the United Nations to call for him.

Now, for Christ's sakes, doesn't he know that China and Russia are on the goddamn Security Council?

You see, they'd veto anything.

Why the hell didn't they do it before?

Because Russia wouldn't let us.

Of course.

But just let them get out on a limb here.

But to name a couple of things I want to check with you, I'm going to Camp David at 1 o'clock and I'll be back tomorrow around...

in time for the calmer luncheon no problem on that is there i don't have anything scheduled now the only one perhaps that should be scheduled is connolly sometime tomorrow right uh yeah but let me talk to him in the morning right so i'll be at camp david and that'll be a good excuse that's right good my feeling on connolly is that if he is still of that mind that he was for you to play the groundwork that to that the request should be that he

not do it before the summit in other words and do it after the summit now the reason for that is it when you buy time you always have it will be in a stronger position but anything before the summit would weaken my hand at the summit he'll have to understand that don't you think sure then you see we go out in texas and do our show there and everything there'd be no question anyway in his

Even if he stays with his idea of going, there'll be no problem, I'm sure, on the timing.

Well, that would be a pretty good time right after the summit, you know, if he was going to go, you know.

Yeah.

But by telling him to stay till after that, he gives him a chance to regroup his own thinking, too.

Yeah, and he might feel better and so forth.

Yeah.

Now, the other thing is that, as you know, I'm really going to have to keep myself totally free for the next...

Through this week, at least.

Through this week, at least, from the knickknacks.

Now, I have one exception.

Well, it's the cabinet thing.

If you feel that we ought to have a cabinet meeting, I hope.

Well, it may be that it just would be good if, and I guess that you can't have it without my sitting through it.

But I think what would happen then is that, frankly, is to have a cabinet meeting and not have Henry do it.

and let Rogers and Laird do the briefings.

You know what I mean?

What the hell?

I mean, I don't...

There's something to be said for that, too.

Put them to the fire, sort of, too.

What?

Put their feet to the fire.

Sure.

Well, then they give a briefing.

They give a briefing on the situation in Vietnam.

You just say to the cabinet, there will be a briefing at the White House situation in Vietnam.

Let Rogers and Laird be there and do it.

I think Henry's point is probably right that there shouldn't be that without you there, though, because the danger then of a...

There.

You can't control it if somebody does start waffling.

Yeah.

And you could get into a thing that would leave it not where you wanted it.

Well, then maybe we should just... And I'm not sure you really need one anyway.

We were just doing it to be doing it, to be perfectly frank.

Is the people around sort of feel the cabinet needs it?

Not really.

There's been no pressure for it.

Well, how about this?

Just as a substitute, Maura and that bunch, they have briefed, you might tell Maura and Larry, they have briefed the congressmen and senators they should tell the cabinet officers that they will be glad to brief them on the military situation.

How does that sound to you?

Yeah.

So that they'll know what's going on, see?

Yeah.

and just let there be that kind of a briefing.

See what I mean?

Yeah, just not a cabinet meeting.

No.

There'll be a briefing for members of the cabinet and sub-cabinet in one of the rooms there, and then just put it on for those that want to attend.

Do that at the Pentagon, for that matter, which is not a bad idea.

Hold the cabinet over there.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

In a briefing room.

There is a briefing, and the members of the cabinet and the sub-cabinet are invited if they'd like to.

Just to update them on that?

Yeah.

I wonder if that doesn't...

too many pictures and things.

Well, it doesn't give them the selling points that Henry would give them.

Well, yeah, I guess it would.

They've got the right... Well, if you want, well, we can hold on that till tomorrow.

Especially if this was good this weekend.

We figure that I could see Rogers will testify tomorrow, so we don't want anything tomorrow.

Just let him go on that.

We thought it was to do it Tuesday if we did it anyway.

And we don't have to do it then.

We can do it Wednesday or Thursday.

We don't have to have a leaders' meeting this week in any event.

No, sir.

Right.

That's done now for, I mean, really, we don't really have to have one next week either, in my opinion.

You know, with your bipartisan leaders gone, the Senate, I think you, and you got the congressional retirees dinner next week.

Yeah, so that's really a... That's your Congress thing for that week.

And all of our guys will be there that week, so that'll be good.

Well, let me say this on the cabinet, if they're sometimes just good to have them have a feeling of participation, but let's look at it tomorrow afternoon and decide.

Okay.

On the other hand, there's one thing that in this period I've got to count on you to do.

You've got to get the Colson apparatus.

I'm not going to talk to them or to McGregor or to Ehrlichman, because I figure they're all self-starters anyway.

Don't you agree?

Yes.

Indeed.

the guidance.

Well, they've got it.

They've got the guidance.

Now, it is very important and very important for you to have a talk with Colson and McGregor, even today, or have you talked to them already, that they're to launch a hell of a support to the president and kick the hell out of these appeasers and the rest and tell them, look, we've got a good case here and don't be afraid of it.

They're all for that and set to go.

Good.

Do they have any players that'll play?

I think so, yeah.

Coulson has a few that on the outside, I suppose, and you've told him about, Coulson, about some ads, maybe, if they could try to get to good.

But particularly...

Covered all of that, and he had... Had some ideas himself.

Already some things underway and ideas.

Well, he's basically a fighter, and he'll understand.

He's all ready to go.

He'll crank up on that.

Now, the other thing that, of course, I will have to put my mind to this week is...

I realize on Thursday is that we come to the Fisher cut bait on Plain Beach, don't we?

Isn't it this Thursday?

Well, yeah.

I was going to wait to talk to you about that.

I talked to Mitchell.

There's a strong feeling now on... To let him stay on his acting?

No, sir.

On Colson, McGregor, and Ehrlichman's part.

Let me see if I'm right.

Yeah, that's right.

That's all three of them now.

that there is sufficient danger to us in the Gleason testimony, which will come up Tuesday, if not possibly tomorrow.

Oh, they're going to have Gleason now.

They called Gleason.

They called him for Friday, and we've got to put off until Monday, and we're not apparently think they've got to put off until Tuesday, the reason being that Eastland won't be there until Tuesday, and they're especially afraid to let him on when Eastland's not there.

Yeah.

The potential danger, and it's only, it's not certain at all, but if he gets going, and we don't know what his motivation is and where they're concerned about him, he could do an enormous amount of harm by getting into the whole 70 contributors business.

Yeah, who can talk to him?

Can anybody talk to him?

Well, his lawyer is the best line we've got to him, and his lawyer is very solidly with us, but Gleason is apparently kind of erratic, and it's got the guys worried.

Also...

Well, so the ploy they've come up with that they now, and Ehrlichman concurs in this, which is kind of interesting, is that we should offer Flanagan with the understanding that they take Flanagan and then that they then, on the condition that that then ends the deal.

Well, in substitution for Gleason.

No, you can't do it in substitution for Gleason.

You're still going to have the danger of Gleason.

The point here is that their view is that they will not accept Flanagan, Flanagan alone, because they want Ehrlichman and Timmons also.

And they're now talking about Klein and Finch, too.

But we make the offer of Flanagan, which is the thing that's getting all the publicity, and we make it under specific restrictions that it's only on the

you know, the domain subjects and all that sort of thing, that they will turn that down.

And on the basis that they're turning it down, we withdraw the nomination and not wait till Thursday.

Or you withdraw it before Gleason testifies?

In order to stop the Gleason testimony.

That's right.

Well, if you talk to Mitchell.

No.

And that's the one more way.

But this would have to be done tomorrow then, Bob.

Yep.

It has to be done first thing tomorrow morning.

Yeah.

Well, I'm for that play.

And...

Mitchell Colson has talked, not specifically about this play, but about the general thing with Mitchell, and Mitchell is much more concerned than he was about the continuing fishing, you know, the kind of stuff that they may get into.

They're obviously playing around with looking for new pay dirt now.

The problem with that play is that they might accept the Flanagan deal.

If they do, then we'd still be stuck with Gleason.

We'd have to run the rest because we couldn't pull Kleine.

But they don't think he will.

They don't think they will except Flanagan.

uh the plus there's another plus to it which it gets us off the public wicked of appearing to be afraid to let flanagan testify it creates the precedental problem of oh you can't hold precedence you just say it's not a precedent well you can't handle precedence as being uh press not you know what i mean we'll say no we won't allow it in this other case and we put the restrictions on it on the basis that it's only in relation to this hiring the consultant which is what they say is all they want

And that was not an act he did for you.

It was a sideline that he did for McLaren.

And, of course, Flanagan wants to go, so there's no...

And there's no problem on his testimony.

Yeah, well, let's get it done sooner.

Well, I know that.

And Ehrlichman said that the more he's looking at this, the more uncomfortable he's gotten with our position on executive privilege in this particular instance because it does appear...

It looks like a cover-up.

That's right.

Well, it's my point all along that he had to send a statement up for that reason.

But the statement wouldn't have done it.

His going up would.

Right.

All right.

And...

We just say we offer him.

We don't offer the others.

Of course, they haven't asked the others yet, so that's... And that's it.

But what if they come back and say, no, we take him, but we've got to have all the others, too?

Then you...

I think we say that's not reasonable.

There's no... That shows it's a fishing expedition.

That shows that, yeah, that you're not interested.

In this case, you're interested in making a witch hunt out of it.

Well, they must have... Gleason must be...

talking to, I don't know, you don't know what he's doing, do you?

No.

Can't Stans talk to him?

Yeah, I think he has, but Gleason is kind of a strange guy.

I don't, there's no, nobody feels that it's likely or certainly not, there's no certainty that he's going to say anything wrong.

It's just that if they start, Gleason won't perjure himself.

Well, I hope not.

If they ask the right questions, they could get some answers we don't want.

Yeah.

Sure.

Nobody should hurt themselves.

For instance, how much did IT&T contribute to the 70 congressional campaign?

Yeah.

In cash, which you picked up.

Mm-hmm.

Well, they did.

They contributed, didn't they?

Yeah.

Also, they contributed to some of the Democratic candidates, too, didn't they?

We don't know that.

I would...

be very surprised that they didn't.

Well, our people should then ask him.

Well, say, Gleason wouldn't know that.

They'd have to get an ITT witness back to do that.

Is that a germane question?

No.

Then they ought to object to it.

Yeah, you can argue it is germane because it was at the same time as the other settlement.

in the 70 campaign was?

No, no, the settlement was in, I think, the spring of 71, wasn't it?

Yeah, but this was...

The contributions to the Congressional campaign were made in the spring of 70.

Well, in the fall of 70.

Yeah.

And the case was up at the time.

I see, sure.

Well, I'm all for the Flanagan ploy.

I'm willing to give on the executive privilege thing, but...

I would see no reason.

You can't reach Mitchell, is that the problem?

No, I'm going to call him today.

Well, we have to reach him.

We were going over this last night.

Well, I think we have to reach him.

I think you should go.

I approve it, so let's go and tell Mitchell that I've approved it and we've got to go on this thing.

And then Kleindies, though, has got to move tomorrow.

Then he wouldn't be able to move, though, on television and all that sort of thing, could he?

No.

You mean he'd ask for television time?

No, not ask for it.

He'd just say that he's going to make an announcement.

Well...

He'd have to move... Well, if Gleason's going to come, he'd have to move tomorrow.

He has to do it tomorrow, Bob, before the Gleason testimony.

By making the Flanagan move, we can throw off the schedule of testimony again, too.

Because they'd take him before Gleason.

Probably.

If they took him.

They won't take him.

I think they're right that they won't.

Well, at least one plus thing about the war thing.

It certainly is tending to put that as a second story rather than the first one, isn't it?

Oh, yeah.

Overwhelmingly.

Well, let's get that done and talk about Flanagan.

We've got to get, Bob, we have to recognize that Clingdees can't be saved now, right?

Nobody has any doubts about that, do they?

I don't think so.

Yeah.

And so the thing to do is to get him out as quickly as we can.

Now, Russell Long joined in, I don't know if you saw that, with the thing of calling for, there has to be Flanagan testimony.

In other words, there's... No, I didn't see that, no.

I'm not looking at the summaries at the moment, no.

He came up with a thing yesterday backing Irvin and

bird.

So they've got the right wing of the Democratic Party lined up on that one.

So we've got no chance, it seems to me.

Why don't you offer him today?

Have it set in motion.

I wouldn't wait until tomorrow.

And get the benefit of the story writing.

all right let's get going and I'd like to have it offered today move it as quickly as you possibly can so there's in other words this is a public relations story and don't worry about the committee not being in session today or anything like that just offer it and then see if they if that's what they want or if they want to go on a fishing expedition through the whole White Isle Staff if so that's yeah yeah and who will prepare that Merlichman or who

Who will prepare the condition or the offer or whatever?

Well, Chuck and McGregor have been working on it.

They probably got an offer together.

Oh, right.

You know, a draft of a thing like that.

Right.

Fine.

Going on this yesterday.

Fine.

Okay.

Do it today.

My view is I don't believe, and you can call me at Camp David if you think otherwise, but I don't believe you should wait.

Okay.

Let's get the PR benefit of getting that.

Make that be the TITT story today that Flanagan has offered to testify.

And if they turn it down, that gives us a chance to get Colson on on Monday and knock them.

Because I think if, I mean getting... Clindy's.

Clindy's on.

And I think if Clindy's does withdraw, I suppose they'll go ahead and have Gleason anyway, won't they?

No, that'll end the hearings.

Will it?

That's McGregor's view, that Eastland will then bang it down and say, oh, that's the end of that.

Once he's withdrawn, the hearings are only for the purpose of any nomination.

There's no justification for it.

I'd have to have it.

I agree.

Well, we've got to get that.

We're not going to take the risk on the Gleason thing.

That's my view.

Totally.

Okay.