On April 18, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 8:25 pm to 8:45 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 023-030 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Mr. Colson, sir.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
How'd it come out today down there at the Senate?
Well, our fellows are cranking up on the Vietnam issue.
No, I meant on the ITT.
The Vietnam I want to know about, too.
Well, they got a 12-1 vote on Flanagan, which was to accept his terms, or the terms that we wrote.
Who wrote?
Who was the one?
Kennedy.
And they kind of forced him to the wall to agree to go along with the...
the committee and not to continue to press irrelevant questions or questions that weren't directly pertained to Kleinmead.
I think we're getting a good bounce out of the way it's playing that Flanagan is prepared to come up and testify.
And with a 12-to-1 vote, they can't say that we're being unreasonable on the terms that he will testify on.
Well, what is the situation tomorrow on the witnesses to this?
Well, tomorrow we have Killingwater and Reinecke, and we will probably have Gleason, although we are trying... How about Stewart?
I think, Mr. President, they finished with him today.
His testimony was pretty innocuous.
He may be back on in the morning.
We are trying to get Killingwater and Reinecke to go on first in the hopes that maybe they'll take all day.
I know, I know.
I talked to...
them about that, and that's what they ought to do.
Well, we're pushing hard on that score.
Of course, because they've got to take some time off for the debate tomorrow, don't they?
Well, that's right.
There'll be the debate in the morning.
Let's see, some of the members of that committee are participating in it also, and we may have objections during the day, or we may have a lack of quorum.
There are some things we can do, stalling-wise, which we'll do to eat up as much time as possible.
Yes, Hart, Kennedy, Tunney,
are all participating in that debate.
Right.
As is Gurney on our side, so that's part of that committee.
Then the others should break up the hearings at that time.
Well, that may be the tactic that we'll follow in the morning, especially if we're not successful in reversing the order of witnesses.
Mitchell was going to talk to Eastland tonight.
Right.
They tried to get a resolution for other witnesses in addition to Flanagan, and that was defeated.
Party line vote.
Nonetheless, we held our ground.
So it now looks like, as a result of the Flanagan thing, that on Thursday night the hearings will break and next week they'll report out findings.
And at least we'll get out of this an acquittal.
We can argue that the committee did report him out and that that is an acquittal.
That's right.
Good.
At least we rescued that.
I'm surprised, frankly, they took Flanagan on the basis they did.
the other effect.
Well, it worked.
Let's let it ride for a while.
And I think it was one of those things, Mr. President, where we gain either way.
We can't be hurt by making it appear that we have nothing to do with Flanagan.
Right, right.
On the Vietnam issue, the CDs did a marvelous job for us today.
He really took off after the Democrats.
He said they wanted to see the United States lose the war, fulfill their prophecies.
He said, I'm nauseated by their pious pronouncements of certain United States senators condemning military action by the United States, ignoring the massive invasion launched by North Vietnam.
Good.
Playing well on the wires.
That's a good line.
I don't expect the Washington papers will give it to us.
Well, the hell with the papers.
The TV won't either.
Well, but we'll get it out around the country.
And we have some good ads that we finished this afternoon, this evening, about seven o'clock, that I think are going to be good, tough, drive our point home.
Rogers is still very much up, Mr. President.
He briefed eight of our tigers this afternoon, the fellows that have really been battling for us.
his office went very well he's briefing the entire house of representatives tomorrow morning at nine good uh on the hill and we've given him a very tough statement for him to issue when he comes out of there which would be kind of good did well today lord was good i thought he uh i'd like to see him more of a debater than he is but he uh as he used to be when he was in the house but he handled himself very well and he was tough he was he was very firm and he knocked down this
ridiculous story that we wouldn't be doing any more bombing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is put out by his people, of course.
But nevertheless, that's all right.
He did well.
He handled himself well.
Well, getting Rogers out is more important than that, though.
I think so.
I've also got Bill convinced that he should go and meet the press a week from Sunday so that we can keep him out.
And he's kind of fired up about this.
He was helpful to us in bringing in some of the guys who will be participating in tomorrow's debate.
He's doing the House Republicans tomorrow morning, huh?
No, Mr. President.
As I understand it, and I just got this reported late this afternoon, he's doing the entire...
They're inviting in all the members of the House.
Wow, that's good.
Both Democrats and Republicans.
And it comes at a very propitious time because the Democratic caucus goes in at 10 o'clock tomorrow in the House.
And they were...
Tip O'Neill and the Doves are going to put forward a...
and end the war today or yesterday resolution, as they've done before.
So his going up there gives us a good punch at the Democrats prior to their own caucus.
Sam Stratton will lead the fight in the caucus, and he's a darn good man.
He's great.
Yeah, he really is.
He said, we should run our side.
Right.
Which he is most of the time.
He has a resolution which is similar to Goldwater's in the Senate, which is,
condemns North Vietnam, which he will offer in the Democratic Caucus.
And that's going to be a nut cutter for them to have to swallow it.
Well, it's good for them to vote it down.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
I mean, to have to take a head count on that kind of a resolution is exactly where we want the Democrats to be.
Right.
Vice President's going to go on Friday, as I imagine Bob told you, or at least he said.
He's going to go with the editors.
Yes, sir.
Yes, and Conley's speaking to them tomorrow and is going to use some lines, which I sent up to him tonight.
He said he told Bob that he was prepared to hit a few of these points and take on some of his Democratic friends.
Talked to Brennan in New York, who, thank God, he's great, he just said,
I can't understand what's wrong in this country.
It's the goddamn communists.
Everybody ought to know it's the communists.
They're behind all this.
Well, I hope he says so.
Well, he said he would.
He said he would have a press conference.
We talked to Rizzo, who said, I'll put out whatever you write for me.
So we wrote a very, very tough one for him and phoned it up to him at 5.30.
Good.
And he said, I hope you fellows are watching what I'm saying down there, because I'm making no bones about where I stand.
He said, in fact...
These bastards from the press were pushing me today, and he said, I went all the way.
I just said, I'm for Nixon right through November.
So he's fine.
We're rallying some of our friends.
The only one that I haven't been able to get out to, which I would love to, is Meany.
Yeah, well.
He just says he's standing on the statements he's made earlier on Vietnam.
That's right.
That's all right.
That's right.
That's a mixed blessing anyway.
You know, just let him sit there a while.
Well, on this issue, I'd love to see him come out because it puts the Democrats in a spot having him do it.
Right.
I don't think he will, though.
I don't think he wants to put them all on that much of a spot.
Well, he did, of course, ten days ago when he made that statement about you being a shoe-in this year.
That just rocked the Democratic Party.
I don't know whether you saw that.
Yeah, I saw that one, yeah.
Hell of a statement.
Yeah, but more important than that is, which is a political statement, if he were to come out and say, God, I don't want my party to be, you know, for treason.
This is what, Chris, this is Lovestone.
It's just a thousand percent.
How about...
Our friend Fitz... Fitzsimmons?
Yeah.
I talked to Fitz last night, Mr. President.
He'll put out anything we say.
I couldn't reach him this afternoon.
He was traveling.
But I'll get him in the morning, and he's another fellow.
It would be good to have him to say something.
He'll do it.
He's a big man.
He should say something as a representative of labor.
That might force me a bit, too.
Yes, I think it would.
And the Teamsters have been great on this issue.
Well, they believe the same way.
That's right.
Well, Fitz, I will get to you tomorrow.
He was so great last week in that speech he gave in New York when he personally endorsed you at a labor crowd, a hell of a big labor crowd, when he received that Four Freedoms Award.
Good.
And he made his own personal endorsement.
That's great.
Very clear.
Well, we'll just keep the heat right on him.
Daily News played it well up in the front of the paper, and the New York Times ignored it, which is to be expected.
Right.
But we'll get fits out there tomorrow, and we have
Most of our fellows who have asked for time in the morning are good.
Alec, Bill, Griffin, McGee will speak on our side, Hanson, Colwood, Brock, Baker, Gurney.
They're all primed.
Good.
All those are good.
I think the feeling among our people, Mr. President, we haven't had to drag anyone along.
This has been a great deal different, as I told you today, in the psychology of it.
than Laos and Cambodia.
Much different.
And the attitude on the hill and the attitude of people we talk to around the country, it's just a different feeling.
I think the invasion, I really did sink in.
Finally got that through.
Yes, sir.
That came through.
And Rogers hit it well, and that'll get it through.
It gets a double clap at that, too.
Oh, yeah.
He'll do it again tomorrow.
I've got one pager to read tomorrow, and he...
Well, Laird hit it today, too, didn't he?
And Laird hit it again today.
Oh, Laird hit it beautifully today.
And Laird took a hard line today.
He was the toughest I've seen.
Now, I circulated through the administration yesterday the seemingly poor results, and I think it has had the effect of making our fellows realize that maybe they're on a popular side.
Yeah, that changes their attitudes very quickly, doesn't it?
But they're doing well.
Right.
Good, good.
And we've got some good economic news tomorrow.
Yeah, I saw that about the GNP, you mean?
GNP, yes, sir.
That's a good figure.
We're bringing Peterson over to brief out the White House so that we can build this one up a little bit.
Of course, all of the economic news has been strong, including now retail sales.
Retail sales, yeah, they're pretty good.
What is the situation on...
The CPI, we haven't got that yet, have we?
I'll have the figure probably by about 5 o'clock tomorrow night for Friday.
Well, it can't be as bad as last month.
At least it'll be a little better, and that's an improvement.
Well, we got a great playoff of the wholesale price last Friday, and this should follow that.
No, I'm afraid that won't come until next month, though, will it?
The CPI follows the wholesale price about a month, doesn't it?
About a month, yes, sir.
I'm afraid.
Well, anyway.
That's right.
But it isn't going to be 6%.
No.
Six-tenths of a percent, I mean.
Well, no, it should not be.
That's right.
That's what it was the month before.
No, it should be down this month.
And the food prices began to slide there.
back into March, and these will be March figures.
We may get a little break out of it this week.
Marina Whitman will do that as she did before.
She was just marvelous on that wholesale price index.
It's really good to have people on that council like Whitman and Solomon and Stein.
All three are good.
All three are excellent spokesmen.
And she is marvelous.
We gave her, on the wholesale prices, the week before last when they came out, we gave her a little 30-second...
thing to say, which was the way Skelly suggested we do it.
And she used it.
All three networks carried it.
Very, very well done.
So we're going to use her again this Friday.
Well, you compare the situation before we had McCracken, Stein, and who the hell was the other one?
Haltaker, who was awful.
Haltaker was impossible.
He was a nice fellow, but he never helped.
But now we've got, we had one good one and two bad ones.
Now we've got three good ones.
That's right.
We now have three
excellent spokesman in that area.
And I think the food price issue, Mr. President, at the moment, that's well under control.
I'm satisfied that between Connolly and the Vice President yesterday and Marina Whitman on the wholesale prices.
Just got to fight it all the time.
That's the way it is.
People have got to feel better about it.
That's right.
That's one, as I indicated in that memo to you, that can
can get out of hand very quickly, and our job is to just sit on that every day and sense the movements and sense the attitudes.
And if it gets out of hand, just hit it very hard, because it's one that obviously has a political edge to it.
Well, tomorrow the boys will have their...
Tomorrow's really the showdown on ITT, isn't it, then?
Well, tomorrow and, of course, Thursday, Mr. President, when Flanagan goes up, we've got two more days of just...
Letting it go.
But Thursday is it?
Thursday is it, yes, sir.
Yeah.
They'll try to make a move, obviously, Thursday night.
If Irvin sticks to his word, we won't have any more hearings.
And then a week from Thursday, they will report finding stuff.
Oh, they're going to take a week after that?
Oh, a week to write the report, you mean?
Yes, sir.
The Byrd Amendment gave them one week to write their report.
Oh, fine.
We wouldn't have Kleindienst out of the committee until the 27th, technically out, although if Bob Bird wants to play ball with us, he can schedule it on the calendar.
Well, that's all right.
Just let it...
run its course and get it over with well i i think i i think the ploy this week has been a good one and i think we're we're better as a result of it yeah but particularly by appearing to be forthcoming on flanagan exactly exactly that i think is going to have a healthy turn the press people ken clausen tells me we're all we're all astonished that we had done it i think they had
pretty well figured we weren't going to.
Yeah.
And this upstaged him a little bit.
Just sit there and take it, but we can move, too, now and then.
Exactly.
That's what we ought to do.
And I think Pete will be a good witness.
I spent time with him today, and we'll have our fellows really sit with him.
Bryce Harlow is going to have a good, give Pete a good going over, but he's a good, attractive guy who can articulate his case.
Right.
Obviously, we have no problem with him, so I think it should turn out to be a puzzle.
Well, the problem really is how you handle Gleason tomorrow, if you can get him.
Well, that's the only one I'm worried about.
Well, we have to worry about it.
We've done everything we can on it.
We just have to hope he realizes it.
Well, you think he's going to go on, though, do you?
Well, I'm afraid, Mr. President, of course, they knew that we were playing games with them because they had them scheduled Friday.
Thursday night, we had his lawyer call the committee and say he just wouldn't be there, period.
They put him on again on Monday.
Mitchell talked to Eastland, and Eastland said, well...
He wouldn't be back.
Wouldn't be back, but he didn't think Holloman would object to switching him, which Holloman, the staff counsel, did object, so we just had him not show up.
We did everything that we could to hold it, and I think that they know, and of course he's had publicity, so...
The Democrats know that they've got a sensitive witness.
But his lawyer is good, and his lawyer is thoroughly briefed, and he's loyal.
So we just have to... Well, we'll just see how they handle themselves tomorrow, and maybe our people can have the sense to filibuster a bit about Reinecke and the other fellow.
Yes, our people, Mr. President...
We're fortunate because the Republicans on that committee have really done a good job.
They're probably a little mad, too, aren't they?
They're tired of the thing, and they think they've been used, and they're kind of up for it.
Yes, and they are mad.
I think Rusk has been damn good this week.
Cook and Gurney, they're good fellas.
So we'll blow our way through that and just keep nailing the Democrats.
Good.
on the Vietnam issue.
They were strangely silent on that today.
Muskie had a little statement, but none of the others really stepped into the debate very hard.
I think they may be a little bit nervous
We'll see.
They're running in the wrong direction politically.
Particularly if you can start nailing them with the idea of supporting the enemy.
Well, that...
I hope people are saying that.
You're supporting the enemy, huh?
Well, that... We can't get senators to be quite as tough as the VFW was today, but they're tough.
Griffin has been damn good for us on this.
He spoke again today.
He got some press...
Dole hit him very hard today.
The Warriors carried Dole well.
I don't know, as I say, how the press will do.
I just keep right at it, though.
We'll hit him every day on it.
We've got, as I say, we've got Conley, Agnew.
I'm going to get Elliott Richardson into the sack.
Yeah, he can do something, right.
He's very good.
He feels very good.
He knows the issue, and he can handle it well.
And we'll keep Rogers and Laird up for it.
I think our big guns...
They keep their heads in the trenches.
See, the editors are in town this week, too.
That's why if we can hammer them a bit, that's good.
Well, that's why I'm particularly anxious to get our lines out this week so that we can get them to the editors.
Well, of course, if Agnew hits it Friday, that'll stick in their minds.
That's the place to...
Right.
He'll sort of be the cleanup hitter.
That's right.
And we've got a great one coming for him if he...
If you use it.
Well, he was good.
He...
He was excellent on television in Texas last night.
He did not only the food price speech, but he then did an interview in which he hit it very hard and hit the critics very hard.
Good, good.
No, I think he'll do fine for us.
Good.
Okay, well, that's good.
Just keep their tails to the fire, okay?
We'll do it, Mr. President.
Thank you, sir.
Please.