Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 24 › Conversation 024-004

Kissinger & Rush on Vietnam War and West Germany

Monday, May 8, 1972 · 1:35 PM–2:10 PM ET · White House Telephone · 2 min

ParticipantsKissinger, Henry A.; Rush, [David] KennethConversation024-004 on Tape 24 (tape position 00:04:55–00:07:22)StartMonday, May 8, 1972 at 1:35 PMEndMonday, May 8, 1972 at 2:10 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 024-004 ↗

AI Summary

Henry Kissinger and Ambassador Kenneth Rush discuss the volatile political situation in West Germany, specifically the intense pressure on Willy Brandt and Rainer Barzel to hold an immediate vote on the Moscow agreement. Kissinger explores the possibility of delaying this vote by one week to facilitate broader diplomatic maneuvering, including a potential presidential message linked to Soviet cooperation regarding the Vietnam blockade. Rush advises against direct American intervention, warning that such a move would be severely misunderstood and damaging to U.S.-German relations during a period of domestic political disarray.

Audio

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello?
Hello, Henry.
Ken, how are you?
Fine, thank you.
How did things go this morning?
Well, your leader fought with the... You know what his position is?
Yes, I do.
And he... That's the position he took.
And the president is in the process of making up his mind.
Well, I hope he makes it up the way you and I think.
Right.
Ken, what I called you about is to see whether we could get that German vote delayed a week.
Which one?
The German vote, which is now set for Wednesday.
Right.
Do you think we can do something without getting caught at it?
I doubt that we can.
In Germany today, Henry, both parties are, well, you might say both groups, because each one has two so-called parties.
are in disarray.
Yeah.
Broad is fighting for his life.
Right.
Broad and Boehner are very anxious to bring this thing to a vote this week.
Yeah.
Really to start tomorrow and have it voted on the following day.
Well, you see, they want a message from the president, but I don't want to waste the presidential message on these guys.
Yes, they want the president.
Well, they both want a message from the president.
Bartzell wants a message from the President saying that he's in favor of a bipartisan foreign policy.
And Brandt wants some help, of course, for his Moscow agreement.
You see, I would be glad to recommend a message to the President.
In return, the Soviets lay off, let us go through with what we are thinking of.
Yes, yes.
But for that, we need a week.
Yes.
Well, without bringing broad into it directly, it would be impossible for us to intervene, I think, and not be very, very seriously misunderstood.
Yeah.
And probably permanently damaged for quite some time.
What you have now, Henry, is a fight for control of the government and for domination of the party.
Look, I've got to see the president.
I'll call you in about half an hour if you can give some more thought to it.
I will, Henry.
Thanks very much.
Right.
Good.

NARA Description

On May 8, 1972, Henry A. Kissinger and [David] Kenneth Rush talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:35 pm and 2:10 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 024-004 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 24-4

Date: May 8, 1972
Time: Unknown between 1:35 pm and 2:10 pm
Location: White House Telephone

Henry A. Kissinger talked with [David] Kenneth Rush.

[See also Conversation No. 336-8B]

     Greetings

     Vietnam
          -The President's meeting with National Security Council [NSC]
          -Blockade
               -The President's decision

     West Germany
          -Possible attempt to delay vote
          -Political parties
                -Problems
                -Willy Brandt
                      -Political future
                -[Forename unknown] Weigner [sp?]
          -Message from the President
                -Rainier Barzel
                -Brandt's Moscow agreement
                      -Kissinger’s view
                             -Soviet Union
          -Possible misunderstanding
          -Political conflicts

     Kissinger's return call

Also recorded on May 8, 1972

  • 024-002 12:21 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 12:21 pm to 12:22 pm.
  • 336-008 1:15 PM · 1 hr 14 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Henry A. Kissinger, White House operator, [David] Kenneth Rush, White House operator, and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 1:15 pm to 2:30 pm.
  • 721-012 1:15 PM · 44 sec — unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:15 pm and 8:40 pm.
  • 721-013 1:15 PM · 34 sec — Stephen B. Bull and United States Secret Service agents met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:15 pm and 8:40 pm.
  • 024-003 1:35 PM · 12 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:35 pm and 2:10 pm.
  • 336-009 2:33 PM · 47 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:33 pm to 2:35 pm.
  • 336-010 2:35 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:35 pm and 3:45 pm.
  • 336-011 2:35 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:35 pm and 3:45 pm.

All 94 conversations from May 8, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 024-004, May 8, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/024-004 (accessed October 9, 2026).