{"conversationCode":"026-033","tapeNumber":26,"conversationNumber":33,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-026-033","startDateTime":"1972-07-01T15:00:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-07-01T15:12:00.000Z","startDate":"1-Jul-1972","startTime":"11:00 AM","endDate":"1-Jul-1972","endTime":"11:12 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Johnson, U. Alexis;","description":"On July 1, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and U. Alexis Johnson talked on the telephone from 11:00 am to 11:12 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 026-033 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":3,"chronRelease":"Third Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"28-Feb-2002","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 26-33\n\nDate: July 1, 1972\nTime: 11:00-11:12 am\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with U. Alexis Johnson.\n\n[See Conversation No. 746-11]\n\n     William P. Rogers's visit to Rome, Italy\n          -Timing\n          -Ronald W. Reagan's forthcoming visit\n                 -Giovanni Battista Motini [Pope Paul VI]\n          -Graham A. Martin\n          -Next session of Italian government\n          -Schedule\n                 -Jack N. Irwin\n          -Rogers's plan\n          -Johnson’s view\n          -US recognition of Yemen\n                 -Possible effect on Rogers’s trip\n                 -Algeria\n                      -David D. Newsom\n          -Pope Paul VI\n          -Algeria\n          -Henry A. Kissinger's memorandum\n          -Martin's recommendation\n          -Italian government\n          -Algeria\n          -Reagan’s visit\n          -Rogers's location in Sana'a, Yemen\n          -Algeria\n          -Johnson's recommendation\n                 -Possible itinerary\n          -Henry Cabot Lodge\n          -Instructions for Johnson\n                 -Kissinger\n          -Pope Paul VI\n                 -Reagan\n\n     Johnson's health","filename":["026-033-splice.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:08:04","tapeEnd":"03:14:08","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Johnson, U. Alexis"],"prevCode":"026-032","nextCode":"026-034","tapeTranscriptFile":"026a.mp3,026b.mp3","transcript":[{"start":11441.4,"end":11442.56,"text":"Yes, Mr. President."},{"start":11442.58,"end":11443.08,"text":"Oh, Alex?"},{"start":11443.24,"end":11443.76,"text":"Yes, yes."},{"start":11444.02,"end":11447.52,"text":"Oh, I didn't, I had nothing of great importance."},{"start":11447.54,"end":11454.36,"text":"As you know, there's a little problem with the bill on this Rome visit, you know."},{"start":11455.17,"end":11457.09,"text":"Yes, I am, yes."},{"start":11457.19,"end":11458.7,"text":"And I've got a memorandum here."},{"start":11458.74,"end":11463.66,"text":"Apparently Reagan is going over there, and he wants to see the Pope."},{"start":11463.9,"end":11467.99,"text":"Bill doesn't want to wait until the 13th when the Italian government is back."},{"start":11468.07,"end":11472.23,"text":"And Graham Martin, of course, like I guess, has to."},{"start":11472.83,"end":11476.13,"text":"put in the pitch that Bill ought to wait and see the Italian government."},{"start":11476.15,"end":11478.53,"text":"If so, then Reagan will have to cancel."},{"start":11478.87,"end":11494.22,"text":"My own inclination, and unless you have a strong, and I'm calling you because you're more familiar with this, my own inclination is to let Bill just go ahead on the 9th and see some other official, and hell, if the government's out of town, it's not his fault."},{"start":11494.88,"end":11502.44,"text":"But do you have a strong feeling about, I mean, Bill apparently very much wants to call on the Pope on the 9th, and then"},{"start":11503.29,"end":11510.02,"text":"and call on some Italian official and then come on, you know what I mean, rather than waiting for the 13th."},{"start":11510.04,"end":11514.94,"text":"See, otherwise he would have to stay around in some place over there."},{"start":11515.48,"end":11522.17,"text":"But I know this hassle about, I've been through it even as a private citizen, of having always to see the Italian government."},{"start":11522.21,"end":11528.15,"text":"You see, then Reagan would be coming in, and of course that's no substitute, but Reagan's going to come in, he'd be seated, the Pope seated,"},{"start":11528.73,"end":11529.27,"text":"the rest."},{"start":11529.33,"end":11530.43,"text":"But what is your opinion?"},{"start":11530.45,"end":11532.47,"text":"Does the Italian government feel that bad about it?"},{"start":11532.53,"end":11533.11,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11533.15,"end":11535.23,"text":"My own sense is that Graham is probably right."},{"start":11535.25,"end":11542.89,"text":"Number two, as far as Bill's desires, I think he was simply trying his best to carry out what he felt you wanted him to do."},{"start":11542.91,"end":11544.97,"text":"I didn't take it that he himself..."},{"start":11545.89,"end":11547.78,"text":"was feeling so strongly about it."},{"start":11547.82,"end":11550.26,"text":"Now, there's a new element, Mr. President, this morning."},{"start":11551.08,"end":11555.88,"text":"We are telling the Algerians about our recognition of Yemen."},{"start":11556.36,"end":11556.64,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":11556.96,"end":11560.08,"text":"And there's some hope that they may have him."},{"start":11560.12,"end":11566.59,"text":"There's some hope that they might be interested in having him and extending recognition at that time."},{"start":11567.43,"end":11569.31,"text":"Dave Newsom is in touch with him now."},{"start":11569.51,"end":11569.77,"text":"Right."},{"start":11570.09,"end":11571.71,"text":"And I'm waiting for a report back."},{"start":11571.75,"end":11573.82,"text":"We had an exchange with Bill this morning on it."},{"start":11573.88,"end":11574.08,"text":"Now,"},{"start":11574.64,"end":11581.2,"text":"If that would take place, then let me say on the Pope, we can handle the Pope."},{"start":11581.48,"end":11590.2,"text":"I mean, I was, frankly, when Bill's over there, it's always good to see the Pope, you know, and so that he doesn't, so he sort of stays in line on POWs and all that other things."},{"start":11590.54,"end":11593.56,"text":"But we do have a hell of a lot of contacts in Reagan to be in."},{"start":11594.41,"end":11598.25,"text":"My view is that if Algeria can be added, it's infinitely more important."},{"start":11598.75,"end":11599.59,"text":"You see what I mean?"},{"start":11599.9,"end":11600.46,"text":"Oh, yes, yes."},{"start":11600.48,"end":11601.42,"text":"Well, I think he feels that."},{"start":11601.44,"end":11602.12,"text":"We all feel that."},{"start":11602.18,"end":11608.78,"text":"Yes, but let me suggest that... Why don't you try to get him on the phone?"},{"start":11609.24,"end":11614.86,"text":"And I'll sort of, you know, I mean, it's really your judgment and his and the rest."},{"start":11614.88,"end":11615.4,"text":"I mean, Henry..."},{"start":11616.09,"end":11630.97,"text":"wrote a little memorandum, and I'm just, we're all just, you know, at loose ends because we don't know what the, what he wants to do, and I don't want to, but you have to listen to your ambassador in this case, and Martin really feels strongly about it."},{"start":11630.99,"end":11635.75,"text":"Yes, and I, you know, the Italians are so damn sensitive, and this is apparently the first"},{"start":11636.63,"end":11640.51,"text":"government they've had for a long time are a little right of center, and I don't want to kick them in there."},{"start":11640.55,"end":11640.97,"text":"No, no."},{"start":11641.29,"end":11646.18,"text":"Well, now, see, if the Algerian thing would work out, then he could delay his arrival in Rome."},{"start":11646.7,"end":11646.82,"text":"Oh."},{"start":11647,"end":11647.76,"text":"And do both things."},{"start":11647.78,"end":11649.46,"text":"That's the reason that I mentioned that."},{"start":11649.76,"end":11653.23,"text":"Well, then if he delays his arrival in Rome, then we should knock off Reagan's."},{"start":11654.53,"end":11655.33,"text":"I see, I see."},{"start":11655.35,"end":11657.19,"text":"See, my point, Reagan's supposed to be here in the 13th."},{"start":11657.27,"end":11658.67,"text":"Reagan should not go see the Pope."},{"start":11658.69,"end":11660.43,"text":"Yes, yes, yes, yes."},{"start":11662.4,"end":11663.06,"text":"It's one of those things."},{"start":11663.2,"end":11668.58,"text":"Well, I tell you, I'm not going to be able to get... See, he's in Sana'a in Yemen, and we have no communication."},{"start":11668.72,"end":11670.81,"text":"Our communications are very bad."},{"start":11672.17,"end":11675.71,"text":"I will find out, one, what the Algerian reaction is."},{"start":11675.73,"end":11677.66,"text":"We should know that during the course of the day."},{"start":11678.38,"end":11684.4,"text":"And then, two, I'll get something off to him along the lines of your thinking on this and to see what I get back from it."},{"start":11684.44,"end":11687.74,"text":"If the Algerian reaction is favorable, I would be very much for that."},{"start":11687.78,"end":11689.24,"text":"And then he could go see the Pope, too."},{"start":11689.26,"end":11689.88,"text":"That's right."},{"start":11689.94,"end":11690.96,"text":"And the Italian government."},{"start":11691.06,"end":11691.52,"text":"That's correct."},{"start":11691.54,"end":11692.88,"text":"Which would be the better thing to do."},{"start":11693.34,"end":11698.92,"text":"But my instinct is that if he does not do the Algerian thing, then I think he ought to drop Rome."},{"start":11699.18,"end":11699.6,"text":"Drop Rome."},{"start":11699.78,"end":11700.36,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11700.46,"end":11702.59,"text":"And let Reagan go ahead on it."},{"start":11702.63,"end":11702.93,"text":"Fine."},{"start":11702.97,"end":11703.77,"text":"Well, that's right."},{"start":11703.79,"end":11705.19,"text":"And then we cover the Pope that way."},{"start":11705.25,"end":11706.35,"text":"And cover the Pope that way."},{"start":11706.39,"end":11706.97,"text":"That would be my thought."},{"start":11706.99,"end":11707.51,"text":"That would be my thought."},{"start":11707.53,"end":11711.16,"text":"I really haven't got anything to talk to the Pope about that, you know, Lodge and all these people have been talking about."},{"start":11711.2,"end":11711.62,"text":"That's right."},{"start":11711.66,"end":11712.04,"text":"That's right."},{"start":11712.16,"end":11712.46,"text":"All right."},{"start":11712.5,"end":11712.74,"text":"Fine."},{"start":11713.24,"end":11714.2,"text":"If you would do this,"},{"start":11718.32,"end":11720.86,"text":"I'm going to leave at 1 o'clock to California."},{"start":11721.44,"end":11725.05,"text":"And if you would just, Henry's out there."},{"start":11725.43,"end":11726.29,"text":"Oh, is Henry already there?"},{"start":11726.45,"end":11726.77,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":11726.91,"end":11730.47,"text":"If you would just fill him in and tell him that my feeling is exactly this."},{"start":11730.61,"end":11734.05,"text":"One, if Algeria is on, that Bill ought to do Algeria and see the Pope."},{"start":11734.33,"end":11734.57,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11734.69,"end":11738.33,"text":"If two, if it is not on, that he should not see the Pope."},{"start":11738.71,"end":11738.99,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11740.19,"end":11741.37,"text":"And leave that to Reagan."},{"start":11742.32,"end":11744.14,"text":"and leave that one to Reagan and come on."},{"start":11744.36,"end":11745.98,"text":"Fine, very good."},{"start":11746.32,"end":11747.54,"text":"That's the way we should operate."},{"start":11747.56,"end":11751.39,"text":"Because as I can see it, then Bill probably doesn't give a damn about seeing the Pope."},{"start":11751.65,"end":11752.45,"text":"That's my feeling."},{"start":11752.51,"end":11754.23,"text":"I think he was simply pushing it."},{"start":11754.25,"end":11755.19,"text":"I just wanted somebody."},{"start":11755.21,"end":11757.37,"text":"Well, I wanted somebody to see him."},{"start":11757.53,"end":11757.81,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11759.55,"end":11781.17,"text":"nobody has seen him since the russian trip and i wanted somebody to see oh yeah well what reagan can do it yeah with reagan doing it sure yeah yeah well i'll fill henry in you just tell him and tell because i i just signed something saying it's okay for bill to to go and so forth because i felt i got the impression he wanted to go on the night but in spite of i couldn't see the time but"},{"start":11781.55,"end":11784.52,"text":"You tell Henry that, one, I prefer the Algerian."},{"start":11784.54,"end":11785.78,"text":"The other thing, if that can work out."},{"start":11785.82,"end":11788.66,"text":"Two, if it doesn't work, that Bill should cancel and let Reagan go."},{"start":11788.92,"end":11789.24,"text":"All right."},{"start":11789.5,"end":11789.74,"text":"All right."},{"start":11789.78,"end":11790.3,"text":"I sure will."},{"start":11790.38,"end":11792.02,"text":"And you just follow up and work it out."},{"start":11792.08,"end":11792.6,"text":"Okay."},{"start":11792.64,"end":11794.32,"text":"How are you feeling?"},{"start":11794.36,"end":11794.8,"text":"Very good."},{"start":11794.82,"end":11795.2,"text":"Very good."},{"start":11795.32,"end":11795.56,"text":"Fine."},{"start":11795.6,"end":11796.46,"text":"I'm coming along all right."},{"start":11796.48,"end":11797.26,"text":"Your voice sounds all right."},{"start":11797.28,"end":11797.68,"text":"That's amazing."},{"start":11797.7,"end":11798,"text":"Oh, yes."},{"start":11798.06,"end":11798.3,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11798.32,"end":11798.6,"text":"Yes."},{"start":11798.7,"end":11798.98,"text":"Okay."},{"start":11799.06,"end":11799.56,"text":"All right."},{"start":11799.58,"end":11799.98,"text":"Thanks."},{"start":11800.02,"end":11801.14,"text":"Have a good trip, Mr. President."},{"start":11801.22,"end":11801.44,"text":"Bye."},{"start":11801.48,"end":11801.66,"text":"Bye."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":11442,"end":11808,"startMethod":"llm-alignment","endMethod":"llm-alignment"},"transcriptConfidence":"high","transcriptSource":"bigtape","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and U. Alexis Johnson discussed the scheduling and diplomatic priorities for Secretary of State William P. Rogers's upcoming trip to Rome. The primary concern involved coordinating Rogers's meetings with Italian government officials in light of an impending visit by Ronald Reagan and the status of the Italian government. Additionally, they evaluated the diplomatic impact of U.S. recognition of Yemen and potential outreach to Algeria, with Johnson emphasizing the importance of securing the Algerian connection to improve regional diplomatic outcomes.","topics":["William P. Rogers","Foreign Policy","Italy","Yemen","Algeria","Diplomatic Relations","Ronald Reagan"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T03:17:55.201Z"},"topicSlugs":["william-p-rogers","foreign-policy","italy","yemen","algeria","diplomatic-relations","ronald-reagan"],"audioDurationSec":369,"audioFiles":[{"file":"026-033-splice.mp3","bytes":5891004,"durationSec":369.01,"bitrate":127716,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:14.887Z","originalFilename":["026a.mp3","026b.mp3"],"spliceSource":{"spliceType":"bigtape","sourceFiles":["026b.mp3"],"cutStart":11440.5,"cutEnd":11809.5,"adjustedStart":11440.5,"adjustedEnd":11809.5,"boundaryMethod":"llm-alignment","confidence":"high","splicedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:14.887Z"},"transcriptPrev":{"segments":67,"replacedAt":"2026-09-18T08:14:03.187Z"},"findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:39.092Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/026-033-splice.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/026-033","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/26/conversation-026-033","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). 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