{"conversationCode":"030-005","tapeNumber":30,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-030-005","startDateTime":"1972-09-19T17:53:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-09-19T17:54:00.000Z","startDate":"19-Sep-1972","startTime":"1:53 PM","endDate":"19-Sep-1972","endTime":"1:54 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.;","description":"On September 19, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 1:53 pm to 1:54 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 030-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 30-5\n\nDate: September 19, 1972\nTime: 1:53 pm - 1:54 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nJohn D. Ehrlichman talked with the President.\n\n[See Conversation No. 357-5A]\n\n       Office of Economic Opportunity [OEO] legislation\n              -Sustaining veto\n                     -House of Representatives\n                     -Gerald R. Ford\n                     -Hugh Scott\n                     -Leslie C. Arends\n                     -Ford\n                             -Civil Air Patrol program\n                                     -Grand Rapids, Michigan\n                     -Timing\n                     -William E. Timmons","filename":["030-005.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ehrlichman, John D."],"prevCode":"030-004","nextCode":"030-006","transcript":[{"start":0.5,"end":2.02,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":2.85,"end":18.04,"text":"One thing that did not come through in that meeting this morning that I wanted you to give me your evaluation of is what is the prospect, John, on the sustaining of that veto?"},{"start":18.36,"end":18.9,"text":"On OEL?"},{"start":18.96,"end":21.73,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":21.95,"end":24.07,"text":"They think it could be sustained in the House."},{"start":24.59,"end":26.35,"text":"Well, that's in one place, right?"},{"start":26.37,"end":27.55,"text":"That's good."},{"start":27.57,"end":28.89,"text":"It could be if you had to do it."},{"start":29.18,"end":29.62,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":30.71,"end":34.98,"text":"Now, that's not a firm count, but it's the best estimate they could give."},{"start":35.06,"end":38.15,"text":"Now, obviously, Jerry had no stomach at all for it."},{"start":38.69,"end":39.45,"text":"Nope."},{"start":39.47,"end":39.75,"text":"That's right."},{"start":40.47,"end":41.53,"text":"And neither did Hugh."},{"start":42.38,"end":42.63,"text":"Right."},{"start":43.32,"end":44.22,"text":"Hugh had none at all for it."},{"start":44.24,"end":44.42,"text":"Right."},{"start":44.8,"end":45.64,"text":"And Jerry had none."},{"start":45.72,"end":47.01,"text":"I didn't know what the hell Les was."},{"start":47.91,"end":51.33,"text":"Well, I suspect Les would be the guy that would have to carry the hod for us."},{"start":53.68,"end":59.67,"text":"Jerry has got some kind of romance going with the CAP program in Grand Rapids."},{"start":60.11,"end":60.55,"text":"Oh, I know."},{"start":60.59,"end":62.31,"text":"He's got one that works there."},{"start":62.33,"end":66.36,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":68.74,"end":70.16,"text":"You say today is the last day?"},{"start":70.3,"end":71.32,"text":"Yes, sir, on this one."},{"start":71.34,"end":72.12,"text":"Right."},{"start":75.87,"end":78.86,"text":"Yeah, well, I'll think about it a little bit more."},{"start":78.88,"end":81.71,"text":"Why don't you take a further check with Timmons on that?"},{"start":81.73,"end":81.95,"text":"All right."},{"start":82.31,"end":82.69,"text":"All right."},{"start":82.71,"end":84.7,"text":"See what his honest feeling is."},{"start":84.8,"end":85.04,"text":"All right."},{"start":85.34,"end":85.58,"text":"Bye."},{"start":85.62,"end":86.38,"text":"Give it a whirl."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and John Ehrlichman consulted on the viability of sustaining a presidential veto regarding Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) legislation. They assessed the reluctance of congressional leaders like Gerald Ford and Hugh Scott to support the veto, noting Ford's specific preoccupation with a Civil Air Patrol program in his district. Nixon directed Ehrlichman to consult with William Timmons for a more definitive assessment of the legislative prospects before moving forward.","topics":["OEO legislation","Presidential veto","Gerald Ford","Congressional relations","William Timmons"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T03:41:45.368Z"},"topicSlugs":["oeo-legislation","presidential-veto","gerald-ford","congressional-relations","william-timmons"],"audioDurationSec":92,"audioFiles":[{"file":"030-005.mp3","bytes":2199927,"durationSec":91.6,"bitrate":192133,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:28.233Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:39.804Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/030-005.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/030-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/30/conversation-030-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}