Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 30 › Conversation 030-025

Nixon phone call with Haldeman on Brooke Amendment and Spiro Agnew

Monday, September 25, 1972 · 9:07 PM–9:21 PM ET · White House Telephone · 14 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Conversation030-025 on Tape 30StartMonday, September 25, 1972 at 9:07 PMEndMonday, September 25, 1972 at 9:21 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 030-025 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and H.R. Haldeman discussed whether Vice President Spiro Agnew should cancel a campaign appearance in Texas to return to Washington for a potential tie-breaking vote on the Brooke Amendment to the foreign aid bill. Although staff opinions were divided on the probability of a tie, Nixon expressed concern that Agnew would suffer significant political criticism if he were absent during a pivotal Senate vote. Ultimately, the President decided that Agnew should play it safe and return to the capital, while instructing staff to arrange a suitable substitute speaker for the Texas event.

Audio

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NARA Description

On September 25, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 9:07 pm to 9:21 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 030-025 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 30-25

Date: September 25, 1972
Time: 9:07 pm - 9:21 pm
Location: White House Telephone

H.R. (“Bob”) Haldeman talked with the President.

       Bernard J. ("Bunny") Lasker

       Forthcoming Senate vote
              -Edward W. Brooke Amendment
                     -Foreign aid bill
                     -Vote tally
              -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
                     -Texas
              -Brooke Amendment
                     -Vote count
                     -Agnew
                            -Schedule

                     -Dallas
              -Conference
              -Foreign military aid
              -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
                     -Vote count
              -William E. Timmons
                     -Votes
              -Schedule
                     -National Association of Retired
                      Government Employees
                     -Chicago
                     -Brooke
-Alternative
       -Bill defeat
               -Military assistance
               -Continuing resolution
-Conference deletion
       -Thomas E. (“Doc”) Morgan
-Timmons’s view
       -Vote count
               -Hubert H. Humphrey
               -Lee Metcalf
               -William B. Spong, Jr.
               -Agnew
               -Metcalf and Spong
               -Humphrey
-Agnew's schedule
       -Senate role
       -The President’s view
       -Alternate persons for Texas appearance
               -John G. Tower
-Importance
       -Henry A. Kissinger
               -Paris
       -Haig
       -Agnew
               -Potential criticism
       -Hugh Scott
       -Timmons
       -The President's experience as President of the Senate
       -Timmons

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello.
Mr. Haldeman calling you, Mr. President.
Okay.
Thank you.
President's on the line, Mr. Haldeman.
Hello.
I'm sorry to bother you on what I think is a ridiculous matter, but it's building up into a big issue.
We've got... Bunny Lasker?
No.
We've got a vote tomorrow in the Senate on the Brooke Amendment, on a move to delete the Brooke Amendment.
Yeah.
And then on the foreign aid bill.
Yeah.
The vice president is not going to be in town.
He's in Texas.
There is a...
very real possibility of a tie vote on the brook amendment deletion yeah although as of now we have uh we think we have it by two votes but but uh we've got two problems on getting people in yeah uh question we can bring the vice president back uh means he cancels a speech to 2500 people some national association he's addressing in dallas in the morning yeah and uh
He is concerned because you told him not to worry about tie votes and not to come back.
Tie votes?
I didn't say tie votes.
What the hell?
Yeah.
Go ahead.
And this is not a do-or-die situation.
If the Brook Amendment passes the bill, they can still probably knock it out in conference, although they might have a problem with it.
And they may knock the whole bill out because it's only two-thirds of what we're after anyway on the foreign military aid.
so uh it's one of those things where it boils down to a close call and he's concerned about he wants to do what what you feel is right he's not really sure what what it is he's reluctant to come back and stand up this group of people supposed to hear him speak in the morning and uh yeah
I talked to Haig and he his view is that that the odds are that we aren't going to have a tie vote and that if we do it isn't going to be a disaster it will only be a problem that putting all the odds together we shouldn't tell him to come back Timmons feels that you know we ought to pull out all the stops because his job is to win win votes and to establish a margin to win them by yeah so it's uh
one normally we wouldn't put to you, but the VP is very honestly trying to do what's right.
He's not sure what it is.
What is the group?
The group he's speaking to is the National Association of Retired Federal Employees, which is an old folks association which has made a financial contribution and provided a lot of volunteer
work and it's their national convention but the group of about the way he could do it and go back no we've been through that one time works against him and everything else and he's got to be in chicago tomorrow night for that dinner yeah i was just about to call him and tell him not to come on the basis of
you know eggs and timmons view but then i figured i he's worried enough about it that i'd better bother you with it is one that would look too bad if we got a tie vote yeah but he's never broken one nope
And this is one because- That's the only problem I'm concerned about is that- This is a motion to delete the- Yeah, so he'd have to vote, I understand.
We need the positive vote.
One point he raised was the added drama of his coming back was another slap at Brooke, which he didn't know whether we cared about one way or the other.
We don't give a shit about that.
Brooke should have taken his gun and damned a minute out.
Yeah.
Well, if they don't delete it, suppose you do have a tie.
Then what happens?
The Central Commandment stays in.
Then we have two possibilities.
We can defeat the whole bill if we want to, but they're concerned about that because we need the military assistance.
They need the dough.
Then you're gambling on a continuing resolution.
or you go for knocking it out in conference, which we can probably do, but Doc Morgan has become less and less willing to fight those.
Bill says it would get watered down in conference.
We wouldn't take a straight brook, but we might have to end up with something.
When you put Timmons' feet to the fire, he says it won't be a tie.
He's got two vote margins.
But he's counting on Hubert and Metcalf and Spong being absent and if they saw that they were two votes short they might bring those two in to force a tie and screw the Vice President.
That's another point.
Yeah, but Metcalf and Spong are both going to be voting wrong then.
That's another thing.
Well, Hubert probably would too.
We don't care.
I don't care whether he does, but the other two, it makes a pretty good issue.
In other words, if they vote wrong and they prevail, if you vote wrong and it doesn't prevail, it makes a difference.
Right.
If you vote wrong and you prevail and your opponent can make something out of it.
Yep.
Darcy is not being there.
It's a problem.
I really think the more—I'm not so concerned about the Brooke Amendment, but I am somewhat concerned about his being out campaigning and missing a tie vote.
That's the problem that I see with it.
If there is a tie vote, then that is a problem.
Well...
see the thing is it makes him look bad Bob that's the problem that I'm concerned about right the whole the issue of whether or not he's around the Senate doesn't mean a damn thing unless something happens sure right if something happens it does make mean something and well yeah so so you figure it against the gamble how if yeah that's right if there isn't a tie vote it won't make any difference that's right if there is uh he'd look bad so how much risk do you take
against the cost.
He misses one speech to a group that's for us that he isn't going to change any boats particularly.
It will amend them some, but they can survive that.
Who could we send down there in this place?
Is there anybody we could send?
This time probably nobody.
Ask John Tower to go in and talk to him or something.
That's right, Tower's down there.
I wonder if they're bringing him back.
They probably are.
Yeah.
Must be.
I'm thinking of anybody in the cabinet or anybody that could go down.
Well, we can, if you want to bring him back, we'll work out something to get someone down there, although I'm not sure the group's worth all that expense flying people back and forth.
The VP's in a charter, so we've got to fly him back.
Yeah.
My general feeling is really not to take the risk on a matter of if it were on water pollution or something like that I wouldn't give one damn but the Brook Amendment you know that does involve a real gut issue and you know particularly at a time when Henry's in Paris and everything too.
Let me see.
Yep.
That's another factor that I've been thinking about.
Well, that's what I thought at first.
Then I backed off of it because Al didn't feel it was.
Yeah.
Not much of a problem.
Yeah.
Well, it's one of those sort of throw coins.
I think, just frankly, in terms of his own, his own, he's doing well at the present time, you know, and he's, I just, I just think that
that it would be something if I'm just thinking of the I mean sure I agree it's probably a long probably maybe it's a long shot but if he misses a tie vote on this kind of an issue they would make quite a quite a good deal out of it in my opinion and I really think they would I think he'd look kind of bad you know that he'd give a damn about that where the hell is he in a tie vote even though it's a vote that the the left wing is for I know that too
I suppose that's another way to look at it is in terms of the fact who's going to criticize him.
I don't know, our own people might.
But in other words, no, no, if he misses a tie vote, I'll say here he was.
The only time he had a tie vote, he's out talking in Texas.
Well, my...
Just gut reaction.
I doubt if it'll be a tie to begin with.
You know how the people that run those damn things, Scott and that bunch, are not worth a damn.
That's right.
And we never know what the hell his score is, and Timmons doesn't know what the hell the score is.
I mean, not his fault, but he just doesn't know.
That's right.
That's the other side.
You get him back and then win it by seven or lose it by ten or something.
It really looks ridiculous.
Yeah.
Well, that doesn't bother me if he's here.
I mean, you make the decision, right?
I'm just inclined to think that I just don't think you ought to take the heat of missing a tie vote.
They do give you one hell of a lot of heat.
I missed one.
You used to come back, huh?
I always came back, and I broke seven ties, of course, in eight years.
But I missed one, I remember, and they erased quite a bit of hell out of it.
I was on some front of a farm bill that didn't make a lot of difference.
This kind of a thing, I think that he's likely to be pretty damn big.
Okay.
And I'm inclined to think that he'd better do it, and then I think you better get the very best possible substitute.
Right.
I mean, I'd fly somebody down for it, though, expense or not, to fill in on it.
We can find somebody who's around that area, probably.
Think so?
Probably.
We've got people all over us.
Yeah.
Sure.
But I really feel if
you better call tim and say now look here what's the score and if it's that much of a chance you better get him here my my view is we just shouldn't take the risk you just say i don't he ought to take the heat of missing a tie vote because it'll be pretty pretty awesome in my view okay having been through it okay yes sir

Also recorded on September 25, 1972

  • 786-025 3:35 PM · 11 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:35 pm to 4:41 pm.
  • 356-012 4:43 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 4:43 pm and 5:16 pm.
  • 356-013 4:43 PM · 30 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 4:43 pm and 5:16 pm.
  • 356-014 4:43 PM · 17 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 4:43 pm and 5:16 pm.
  • 030-024 5:16 PM · 1 min — Charles W. Colson and W. Richard Howard talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:16 pm and 6:10 pm.
  • 356-015 5:16 PM · 17 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, Patrick J. Buchanan, and W. Richard Howard met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:16 pm to 6:10 pm.
  • 030-026 9:21 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:21 pm and 9:23 pm.
  • 030-027 9:23 PM · 58 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 9:23 pm to 9:24 pm.

All 40 conversations from September 25, 1972 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 030-025, September 25, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/030-025 (accessed November 15, 2026).