{"conversationCode":"032-063","tapeNumber":32,"conversationNumber":63,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-032-063","startDateTime":"1972-10-27T03:44:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-10-27T03:53:00.000Z","startDate":"26-Oct-1972","startTime":"11:44 PM","endDate":"26-Oct-1972","endTime":"11:53 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On October 26, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 11:44 pm to 11:53 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 032-063 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":4,"chronRelease":"Fourth Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"10-Dec-2003","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 032-063\n\nDate: October 26, 1972\nTime: 11:44 pm - 11:53 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n        Vietnam\n            -Network news reports\n                -Charles W. Colson's talk with Kissinger\n            -George S. McGovern\n                -Chances of victory\n                     -Colson's analysis\n            -Peace settlement\n                -The President's statements in West Virginia and Kentucky\n                     -Response\n                -US terms\n                     -Return of Prisoners of War [POWs]\n                     -Cease-fire\n                     -South Vietnamese self-determination\n                -Credit for the President\n                -Timing\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                 -North Vietnam\n                      -Meeting in Paris\n                           -Delays\n                                -Effect\n                 -1968 bombing halt\n                      -Nguyen Van Thieu’s handling\n                 -North Vietnam agreement\n                      -US confirmation\n                      -The President’s statement\n                      -Differences\n                           -Resolution\n                 -Public reaction\n             -Kissinger's briefing\n                 -News coverage\n                      -Extent\n                           -Colson\n                      -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon’s opinion\n                           -Ronald L. Ziegler\n                 -Questions\n                      -Kissinger's response\n             -Peace settlement\n                 -Thieu’s response\n                      -Kissinger’s view\n\n        Phone call\n\n        Vietnam\n            -Kissinger's briefing\n                -Nelson A. Rockefeller's reaction\n                -McGeorge Bundy, James B. (“Scotty”) Reston, Carl Moore\n                    -Response\n                -Moore\n                    -Unknown law firm\n                    -Marriage\n                          -Luce family\n                -Response\n                    -Taft Schreiber\n                -Advantages\n                    -The President's absence\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                            -Political advantage\n             -Peace settlement\n                  -Final terms\n             -The President’s authority\n                  -Second term\n             -Edward M. Kennedy\n                  -Statements about Thieu\n                       -Corruption\n             -Kissinger's briefing\n                  -Colson's call\n                  -James L. Buckley\n                       -Congratulations\n             -Criticism\n             -Peace settlement\n                  -Issue in 1972 election\n                  -Problems\n                       -Nelson A. Rockefeller’s concern\n                            -Domestic agenda\n                       -Winston S. Churchill's election defeat\n                            -Comparison\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 01/11/2018.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[032-063-w001]\n[Duration: 29s]\n\n       The President’s trip to Kentucky\n              -Success\n              -West Virginia drop by\n              -Crowds\n                     -Size\n                     -Shouting “Peace with Honor”\n              -Support for the President\n                     -President’s opinion of margin of victory\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n******************************************************************************","filename":["032-063.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"032-062","nextCode":"032-064","transcript":[{"start":0.94,"end":1.44,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":3.43,"end":4.11,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":4.13,"end":4.67,"text":"Mr. President?"},{"start":5.63,"end":11.98,"text":"Well, Henry, I understand that all the three news shows were about Vietnam, and I wonder why."},{"start":14.16,"end":17.79,"text":"Wilson called me, and he thinks that we've wiped McGovern out."},{"start":18.27,"end":18.73,"text":"Did he really?"},{"start":18.97,"end":19.25,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":19.33,"end":19.63,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":20.49,"end":21.43,"text":"I thought you'd be interested."},{"start":21.45,"end":23.25,"text":"I was in West Virginia, and..."},{"start":25.66,"end":29.71,"text":"Kentucky, and I played it even a little more low-key than we talked."},{"start":29.73,"end":43.46,"text":"I just mentioned, I just said that based on the progress that has been made to date, I can say with confidence tonight that I believe we will achieve our goals, you know, just like that."},{"start":43.74,"end":45.73,"text":"What was the response?"},{"start":45.77,"end":46.97,"text":"They practically take the roof off."},{"start":47.91,"end":51.45,"text":"A peace with honor and not a surrender."},{"start":51.69,"end":53.47,"text":"That's all I said."},{"start":53.53,"end":55.55,"text":"And then I lay out the three things."},{"start":56.21,"end":59.91,"text":"I said we have laid down only three things."},{"start":60.11,"end":61.67,"text":"One, that all of our prisoners of war."},{"start":62.2,"end":63.34,"text":"Two, a ceasefire."},{"start":63.76,"end":64.86,"text":"I don't even say what kind."},{"start":65,"end":69.92,"text":"And three, that the people of South Vietnam will determine their future without having it imposed."},{"start":69.94,"end":78.89,"text":"But these North Vietnamese completely now because we're getting the credit or you're getting the credit at home for settling it while they don't get the benefit of an agreement."},{"start":80.66,"end":90.19,"text":"And you don't think, I suppose the problem we've got, which we have to bear in mind, is that it's just a week early."},{"start":90.47,"end":98.24,"text":"But on the other hand, I don't see in view of the message you got while you were in the yellow over room, they've got to come to Paris, don't they?"},{"start":98.56,"end":100.08,"text":"Well, they may not come next week."},{"start":100.92,"end":101.54,"text":"Well, that's all right."},{"start":101.62,"end":102.6,"text":"They may say the 10th."},{"start":103.36,"end":103.86,"text":"What do we care?"},{"start":104.14,"end":108.73,"text":"You see, the longer they wait, the more of their infrastructure they're going to lose because"},{"start":108.86,"end":117.89,"text":"Well, but the only thing that they might do, you remember in 68, after Johnson announced the bombing, how Q blew it, threw the whistle, and that hurt."},{"start":118.57,"end":119.03,"text":"You know, hurt him."},{"start":119.53,"end":123.22,"text":"Yeah, but they hadn't blown the whistle this time."},{"start":123.24,"end":125.56,"text":"Well, with the North Vietnamese, I don't think so."},{"start":127,"end":130.09,"text":"I mean, the North Vietnamese, I suppose, could blow it on us, couldn't they?"},{"start":130.39,"end":134.01,"text":"They just put out the agreement and said they want it."},{"start":134.03,"end":135.57,"text":"They're asking us to sign it."},{"start":136.52,"end":137.84,"text":"I get, I see your point."},{"start":137.86,"end":143.32,"text":"In other words... We have confirmed it, so now they can't say you're... Basically, all you were doing was confirming their agreement."},{"start":143.34,"end":143.86,"text":"That's right."},{"start":144.22,"end":147.27,"text":"I began by saying their statement is essentially correct."},{"start":147.37,"end":149.85,"text":"Now let me just explain it in our language."},{"start":149.87,"end":156.4,"text":"And, oh, the way I said it, I said, while there are some differences that have to be resolved."},{"start":156.42,"end":157.18,"text":"That's the way I put it."},{"start":157.78,"end":159.06,"text":"And that's all there is to it."},{"start":159.08,"end":160.44,"text":"There are, they are very small."},{"start":161.52,"end":161.86,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":161.88,"end":163.16,"text":"So we kept right on..."},{"start":163.45,"end":166.03,"text":"I wouldn't say they're very small."},{"start":166.13,"end":168.05,"text":"I didn't say small."},{"start":169.01,"end":174.2,"text":"You and I know they're small because you use the term 90%, but I said, well, there are some differences that have to be resolved."},{"start":174.22,"end":175.28,"text":"100%."},{"start":175.98,"end":177.34,"text":"You've got a good reaction."},{"start":177.59,"end":180.75,"text":"Of course, the point is they think you've got peace."},{"start":181.83,"end":182.57,"text":"That's what they think."},{"start":182.73,"end":183.49,"text":"But that's all right."},{"start":183.51,"end":184.01,"text":"Let them think it."},{"start":184.03,"end":185.66,"text":"That's essentially true, Mr. President."},{"start":185.7,"end":189,"text":"You'll have it by November 20th."},{"start":189.6,"end":191.47,"text":"But what have you heard during the evening?"},{"start":191.51,"end":193.09,"text":"Have you talked to any other people?"},{"start":193.15,"end":195.45,"text":"Well, it's dominating all the news shows."},{"start":195.65,"end":195.88,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":195.9,"end":197.5,"text":"They're playing it on specials."},{"start":197.56,"end":200.04,"text":"They're playing big songs of the news thing."},{"start":200.06,"end":201.68,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":201.7,"end":203.55,"text":"And Colson called me."},{"start":204.09,"end":206.03,"text":"My wife said you came through very well."},{"start":206.11,"end":207.23,"text":"She saw you at noon."},{"start":207.89,"end":208.85,"text":"Oh, did she?"},{"start":208.88,"end":210.94,"text":"Yeah, she said you were strong."},{"start":211.14,"end":217.37,"text":"I mean, we were talking to Ziegler about it, and I just raised the question about what they were using."},{"start":217.45,"end":218.33,"text":"And she said, well..."},{"start":218.87,"end":222.17,"text":"I don't know, some part where you knocked on the political things."},{"start":222.21,"end":223.03,"text":"That's what she heard."},{"start":223.05,"end":223.27,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":223.41,"end":225.07,"text":"I said, that's an unworthy question."},{"start":226.01,"end":238.75,"text":"I said, can you really believe that a president who has gone through this anguish and through this four years, they said they suggested it was a hoax, would engage in a hoax."},{"start":238.91,"end":241.31,"text":"I said, how do we know this is a hoax?"},{"start":241.41,"end":243.36,"text":"I said, our records speak for that."},{"start":243.86,"end":246.3,"text":"Oh, God, that's great."},{"start":246.32,"end":246.46,"text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":247.71,"end":254.35,"text":"And as far as Q is concerned, if he blows a whistle on us, then we're in a perfect shape to twist his arm."},{"start":255.36,"end":267.87,"text":"He won't blow the whistle because he's wily enough to see that we are protecting him because at no point did I say that it was final."},{"start":268.6,"end":272.12,"text":"Well, either that it was fine or that we didn't take his view seriously."},{"start":272.16,"end":277.53,"text":"I kept saying they have a country that's been devastated, has a right to participate in it."},{"start":277.55,"end":280.27,"text":"Right, right, right."},{"start":280.47,"end":281.25,"text":"You really covered that."},{"start":282.12,"end":282.36,"text":"Yes."},{"start":282.64,"end":285.16,"text":"But you were... Go ahead, want to pick up the phone?"},{"start":285.18,"end":291.37,"text":"Right."},{"start":291.39,"end":291.85,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":291.97,"end":293.27,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":293.29,"end":293.55,"text":"Hello."},{"start":293.73,"end":294.01,"text":"Yes."},{"start":294.27,"end":294.77,"text":"And..."},{"start":294.99,"end":298.69,"text":"But you said that earlier you were telling me that Nelson was really pleased."},{"start":298.73,"end":299.71,"text":"Oh, Nelson called."},{"start":299.94,"end":303.52,"text":"And you heard from Bundy Reston?"},{"start":303.54,"end":309.93,"text":"Bundy, I hear from all people, of all sorts of people, that Reston called Carl Moore."},{"start":310.61,"end":311.35,"text":"He's a lawyer."},{"start":311.37,"end":317.23,"text":"He's a partner of a fellow, a senior partner of Gravath, Wayne, and Moore called."},{"start":317.55,"end":318.36,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":318.48,"end":319.46,"text":"I know the Moore."},{"start":319.48,"end":320.88,"text":"He married into the..."},{"start":322.24,"end":324.26,"text":"The Luce family."},{"start":324.46,"end":327.05,"text":"I know them, yeah."},{"start":327.53,"end":329.59,"text":"That's right."},{"start":329.67,"end":329.85,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":329.91,"end":334,"text":"And I must have had 150 to 100 phone calls from people all over town."},{"start":334.01,"end":337.94,"text":"Schreiber called and he said he watched it with 10 other people."},{"start":338,"end":338.74,"text":"What'd they say?"},{"start":338.84,"end":344.07,"text":"They were applauding and they were saying it was marvelous and he just called me about it."},{"start":344.29,"end":344.59,"text":"Great."},{"start":345.45,"end":348.01,"text":"And congratulations to the president."},{"start":348.03,"end":348.67,"text":"All right."},{"start":349.34,"end":354.37,"text":"You know, one thing that is very good about it, Henry, is that you did it rather than me."},{"start":354.41,"end":362.8,"text":"You see, it leaves it in a position where if I'd done it, then they would have thought it was political, that I was using it politically."},{"start":363.06,"end":365.44,"text":"You see, that's the thing that I liked about this."},{"start":365.94,"end":371.88,"text":"You're going out announcing this is really better than if we'd had the piece made and I'd gone out in a dramatic program."},{"start":371.9,"end":372.44,"text":"You know what I mean?"},{"start":372.5,"end":377.05,"text":"And the fact that you are holding out for the final term."},{"start":377.07,"end":377.53,"text":"That's right."},{"start":378.2,"end":382.83,"text":"And, of course, when it's finally done, you can still make the announcement, of course."},{"start":384.47,"end":385.79,"text":"Well, we don't care about that."},{"start":385.83,"end":386.49,"text":"It'll be too late."},{"start":386.51,"end":388.54,"text":"We don't give a damn about the announcement then."},{"start":388.75,"end":395.67,"text":"Well, I think, though, it will establish your authority in the new administration."},{"start":395.7,"end":398.09,"text":"Because you'll have been the statesman who went through this."},{"start":399.39,"end":401.69,"text":"The only thing that..."},{"start":402.2,"end":407.71,"text":"I see Teddy Kennedy was saying that we were propping up a corrupt, propping up Q or something like that."},{"start":407.73,"end":409.01,"text":"That's a lame goddamn thing."},{"start":409.03,"end":410.27,"text":"Well, but what do they want us to do?"},{"start":410.37,"end":412.58,"text":"Undermine our ally, overthrow him?"},{"start":412.6,"end":413.34,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":413.86,"end":414.34,"text":"And also..."},{"start":414.38,"end":416.69,"text":"They're going to be hacking around for excuses."},{"start":416.77,"end":417.03,"text":"Sure."},{"start":418.21,"end":421.64,"text":"And, uh, but we've got them right where the hair is short."},{"start":422.26,"end":427.39,"text":"And I haven't seen the whole flow, but Colson called me and he said it was overwhelming."},{"start":427.43,"end":428.97,"text":"The good Tim Buckley called up."},{"start":428.99,"end":429.93,"text":"Congratulations."},{"start":429.95,"end":430.55,"text":"Oh, did he?"},{"start":430.57,"end":430.85,"text":"Good."},{"start":431.09,"end":432.12,"text":"Congratulations."},{"start":432.18,"end":434.84,"text":"He said these are the terms that he had been hoping for."},{"start":435.8,"end":437.44,"text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":437.46,"end":439.57,"text":"And so he got the right wing in good shape."},{"start":439.59,"end":440.09,"text":"That's good."},{"start":440.41,"end":440.63,"text":"Good."},{"start":440.87,"end":441.23,"text":"The left."},{"start":441.85,"end":448.12,"text":"The left, you know, the interesting thing now is we may find the left squealing only because they're so desperate about the election."},{"start":448.56,"end":453.75,"text":"That's right, but what it does in any event, I think, is remove Vietnam as an issue."},{"start":454.95,"end":456.25,"text":"Which we may not want to do."},{"start":457.33,"end":459.36,"text":"Well, but he can't go around coughing about it."},{"start":462.94,"end":463.2,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":463.22,"end":466.95,"text":"On the other hand, it isn't quite settled yet, so the fear that Nelson has,"},{"start":468.13,"end":470.17,"text":"That it would look like we pulled a political trick."},{"start":470.19,"end":476.68,"text":"Well, A, that you pulled a political trick, and now that peace is here, they should go with the domestic... Oh, you mean... Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right."},{"start":476.7,"end":477.94,"text":"That is the Churchill syndrome."},{"start":478.18,"end":478.4,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":479.91,"end":481.75,"text":"Although it's not a comfortable situation."},{"start":481.77,"end":483.05,"text":"Oh, of course not, of course not."},{"start":483.07,"end":484.53,"text":"We all know that, yeah."},{"start":484.75,"end":486.36,"text":"That was the end of a war and everything."},{"start":487.52,"end":491.81,"text":"Well, anyway, you ought to get a little rest and hang on, hang on."},{"start":502.15,"end":502.99,"text":"Okay, Henry."},{"start":503.13,"end":503.47,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":503.49,"end":503.88,"text":"Goodbye."},{"start":503.98,"end":504.4,"text":"Good luck."},{"start":504.42,"end":505.43,"text":"Get a little rest."},{"start":505.5,"end":506.03,"text":"Great job."},{"start":506.23,"end":506.99,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discussed the highly positive public and media reception following Nixon’s recent remarks regarding progress toward a Vietnam peace settlement. They reviewed the administration's strategic focus on securing POW returns, a cease-fire, and South Vietnamese self-determination, while agreeing that keeping the negotiations ongoing avoids the appearance of a purely political maneuver. The conversation confirmed that the current diplomatic posture effectively neutralizes Vietnam as a major issue in the ongoing 1972 election campaign.","topics":["Vietnam War","Peace Negotiations","1972 Election","Public Opinion","POWs","Henry Kissinger"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T04:05:54.718Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","peace-negotiations","1972-election","public-opinion","pows","henry-kissinger"],"audioDurationSec":512,"audioFiles":[{"file":"032-063.mp3","bytes":12286118,"durationSec":511.87,"bitrate":192020,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:28.233Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:40.405Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/032-063.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/032-063","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/32/conversation-032-063","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}