On November 3, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 9:48 pm to 10:12 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 033-002 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, I hear you got the stock market up to 984, huh?
Boy, it really has moved, hasn't it?
They finally decided on Wall Street that you were going to be reelected.
Well, at least this is a good thing in a sense, you know, in that area.
A lot of those jackasses just move on the basis of how their stocks are.
It's a bullish ending to a pretty bullish week.
with a lot of volume.
And I can tell you what, of course, the point is, the 984 is the highest since we've been in, I think.
Yes, it is.
I think it was a point higher in December of 1968.
Yeah, that's before we ran long.
Right.
I think we're getting very close to it.
Well, Jim Perry was right a week ago when he said it would break 1,000.
I think it's headed for it.
I'm positive Wednesday morning.
Well, we've done our part for the candidates.
Good God.
that fellow out there in Oklahoma.
Jesus, I had to really cross my toes and feet when I told him how much I needed that fellow in Rhode Island.
Although I must say I like the governor, Steve Simone.
He's a hell of a guy.
Oh, he's solid.
Well, he's going to win.
I'm afraid Chafee isn't going to make it.
Chafee fell behind in the polls today.
He did?
Yes, sir.
Well, I'll be damned.
Why?
Well, he took—because he's been running such a jackass campaign.
He really— He couldn't be behind Pell.
Yes, he's two points behind in the latest President's Journal, so— What are we showing?
Twenty points ahead.
He can't win.
He can't lose, then.
I don't think so.
Then my being there—my being there may have done it, then.
What do you think?
Well, if he—well, hell, if he wins, that's true.
Of course, he's kind of a fellow that may not remember—well, yeah, he'll have to remember that.
But I praised him as a guy that had the strong Navy, we needed a strong America, number one, all that jazz, peace without surrender.
Your television was excellent, Mr. President, both from Chicago and Tulsa.
Both of it made the—the only network news I saw that night was CBS.
And both the airport shots from Chicago and from Tulsa were very, very good.
I thought particularly the line about
I did it again tonight, too.
That just stabs it to him.
Don't you think it really sticks it to him?
Oh, right to the heart.
I mean, it has to kill him because— I'm going to tomorrow express my appreciation for the way Senator Humphrey has supported us in these last few days.
I think that would be marvelous.
I do.
I think that's a— Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, that's a great idea.
As one who's been through many national campaigns.
Anything new today, Chuck?
No.
The Kiss My Ass thing's apparently gone out more than I thought it would.
Oh, hell, it was the banner headline of the Detroit News this afternoon.
Was it?
Yes, sir.
Front page of the Baltimore Sun this morning, which surprised the hell out of me.
The McGovern papers did not carry it.
The Post, like the Boston Post, buried it.
The Boston Globe didn't carry it.
The Times didn't.
was the first edition, so that's probably not fair.
He didn't carry it.
No, I looked it up.
It wasn't in the Times, at least not in our edition.
But it's all right.
It's all right.
They don't matter.
It got a hell of a lot of radio play.
It, I'm told, was played very, very big in Michigan.
Was it?
Yes, sir.
I don't know whether it hurt there or not.
They're pretty sort of outspoken.
Oh, no, it hurts.
It'll help with his kids, you know.
His kids all talk that way.
Yeah, it'll help there, but he's got those... That's where it hurts, Mr. President, is that people feel he doesn't...
He doesn't have command of himself.
In other words, that's a loss of control.
Yeah, because basically that's the thing that Agnew is gaining on, is to get the humor and the rest.
Exactly right.
No, I think that that has hurt him.
And you know the way, I went through three audiences today, all with hecklers, yelling and screaming, and paid no attention to them.
Yeah, that's the way to do it.
Chicago, it was interesting on TV.
They mentioned that you had hecklers.
And of course, Bob had called me from the plane to tell me about it, but he couldn't tell it from the television.
And I must say, it was kind of good, because you were getting your points across.
They mentioned that there was a small group of hecklers in the hangar.
They made a lot of noise in the hangar, but maybe not as much on TV.
Well, they didn't, at least on CBS.
I did not see them, too.
But the footage was damn good.
You talked about having the kind of
country in which people could speak with civility and be heard, and that was very good.
The national unity theme and the fact that the peace stuff you hit just right.
I think the Vietnam thing, at least the wiretapping, plus what I saw on TV.
I think we should leave it there.
I don't think Henry should go out tomorrow.
No, I discouraged him very hard.
I'm glad you did, because basically I can continue to talk positively.
Like I say, we've reached agreement on the major points, but we've got some other points that are very important.
They've got to be settled, too.
Well, the simple fact is that
that we couldn't be in better shape.
And the only thing that Henry could do—I mean, there's no way that we could be any stronger.
What did McGovern say tonight?
He was on talking to a bunch of ministers this morning, and it was— But he was supposed to talk on this in Vietnam tonight.
He did be on at 10.30 tonight.
Mankiewicz was interviewed and said that he would be playing out that it looks to them like we're not on the road to peace, that we've given in to two,
I think we pay no attention to them.
Don't you agree?
No.
Or do you want to hit them?
I want to hit them.
I'd like to hit them.
Not me, you don't mean.
Oh, no, no, no.
No, that's what I meant.
I meant what I mean.
Oh, no, you should ignore it.
Good job.
Pull out Laird and let Rogers hit them.
Laird would like to tomorrow and Rogers on Sunday, and I think that's just about right.
Right.
That they, as distinguished from Senator Humphrey or Vice President Humphrey and President Nixon, when they were candidates...
put the country first.
This is an unconscionable, vicious thing.
You see?
How about that way?
That's just the way that we would like to do it.
We'll see how well he does tonight.
You know, he's doing very badly.
On TV tonight, he looked—he looked—whipped his voices to a horse.
He isn't—he's got no animation at all.
I mean, he doesn't— Well, he's tired.
The poor devil is running around.
Of course, he's only fifty years of age.
Christ, when I was fifty, I could
Well, but he doesn't have the stuff, Mr. President.
He really doesn't.
You don't think so?
No, no.
And I think he realizes he's on the verge of an impending disaster from his side, and everything he has done has gone wrong.
He got his schedule screwed up today.
He spoke before a small group of ministers, and it wasn't really very inspiring stuff.
Tonight is for his—well, I shouldn't say that.
I only saw one network.
On that one network, we certainly came out miles ahead.
You read it.
There were scenes from Chicago.
There were scenes from Tulsa.
It was kind of upbeat.
You know, it was the Air Force One coming in, you getting off it.
A good feeling.
We were a huge crowd, you know, for two-day rallies.
Well, they made that point.
I was surprised.
At least CBS, we had it.
We had a 15 to 20,000 in Chicago.
We had at least 20 to 25 in Tulsa.
We had 18,000 tonight.
Yeah, they said 25.
CBS tonight said 25 in Chicago after I'd written 15 on the wires.
15 is all it really was.
But Tulsa was 25.
What the hell?
That's damned.
The number really doesn't matter when you can fill a hangar and have a lot of enthusiastic people.
It looked good.
The crowd shots were good.
It showed you both times coming through the crowd.
in both rallies.
I thought it was excellent, and I think just the right amount of campaigning, just coming at the right time and the right pace.
If we can believe the Harris figures, we really don't—I mean, we're just going— What's he got?
Has he got anything yet?
Well, he's got all of yesterday's finished, and— Yesterday's finished.
Raw data is still low.
No, no.
Oh, no.
He ran up to 28 points ahead, 61-33.
That's from yesterday.
That's from yesterday.
Is he not going to print that?
No, he won't print it for the reason that he'll do 1,500 samples more tomorrow.
And had he printed this tomorrow and then there were any difference in tomorrows, then when he printed Monday, it would look like there'd been movement, which he is convinced there is not.
Does he think this figure's right, Chuck?
Yes, sir.
So he's going to take yesterdays and tomorrows.
He has it at 6133.
I don't really believe that, do you?
Yes, I do.
I don't think it's that good because of what I read about the Blue Collar ship.
I think there has been some, you know, in that Cleveland precinct and the others that they talked about.
Well, I'm getting none of that, Mr. President.
No, what you're seeing on television and the interview that was in the news summary this morning, yeah, there'll be pockets of that, but it isn't very widespread.
And I think the public has made up its mind.
Lou is going to project it for Monday.
Well, he goes through this process every year.
What he's doing this year, he would normally have released this figure tomorrow, but then he's concerned, or I was concerned, rather, that tomorrow showed a shift up or down.
On Monday, he would have to say, well, over the weekend...
So he's going to wait until Monday to put anything out?
Well, then he'll put the whole thing, all 3,000 interviews, which means that tomorrow...
And if he shows it less than 60, suppose he shows it 59.35.
That's so good of him.
That's right.
If he only does one this way, then there'll be no movement because a week ago it was 28.
And today it's 28.
And if tomorrow it's 24, well then it averages out to 26.
So he shows Monday morning, he shows a 26-point lead.
But he doesn't even think it's going to do that.
He thinks it's going to stay right at this.
He thinks...
because all of the underlying things are very, very solid.
Are they good?
Yes.
And no slippage anyplace.
And so he just doesn't feel... What did you say about Watergate?
He's not getting anything.
That's...
He now buys...
It's mainly, I think, a Republican problem, you know?
Well, he now completely buys the theory, Mr. President, that Vietnam just knocked that right off the people's minds.
His theory is that people are only thinking about one thing at a time.
Right now, they're thinking about the end of the war and the...
That's helped the confidence in your leadership, and that stopped the erosion, and it stopped people thinking about the saboteurs and spies.
And even though they know it isn't over, they have more confidence in me than McGovern.
That's right.
Well, probably more so.
There's just that little bit of, you know, there's the feeling that it isn't just a matter of signing a piece of paper and getting it over with.
I get that all day today.
I got a line off.
They didn't use it, of course, but a very good one in Tulsa, which I would hope would be picked up.
I said...
Now let me tell you about the election.
The election is not going to hurry us into making a bad agreement.
And the election also is not going to delay us in making a good agreement.
That's the way it's going to be.
That's just the way to put it.
The only thing we have to guard against, and I talked to Henry about this this afternoon, is if the press over the weekend really build off the McGovern line.
They've played
the game with him, whatever he is, whatever has been the line he's been moving, they've moved it.
Yeah.
And if he plays the line that we're, you know, deliberately— Bombed out.
Yeah, and going to not go ahead with the agreement, then we just have to—you know, we may have to use Henry to—on a one-on-one basis, I would never— No, only one-on-one, though.
Yeah, that's what I told him.
I would never put him out there, because we're so damned far ahead that there's just no point.
And you want to remember, I'll be out there in North Carolina.
which will make the news tomorrow, and I'll be very confident that it's going to be done.
Yeah, and of course, you see, that takes care of the Sunday papers and tomorrow night's TV.
Then you're into Monday, which is, oh, you're going to get Monday your polls.
You're going to have Harris, you're going to have Gallup, you're going to have, I think there are 17 state polls that we will have by midnight tomorrow night.
They'll be just, really what you're going to get is political analysis beginning Sunday and Monday.
California has already run it.
Yes, sir.
The old poll ran yesterday.
And that's the end of California.
Don't you think that really cooks him in California?
Have you got any reactions to it?
Yes, sir.
Don Rogers called me tonight.
He's out in Los Angeles.
And he said, I have never seen anything in my life like the Paul Hall operation.
He said, my God, they've got 35 cars, sound trucks, going all through the streets of San Francisco.
They've got people working.
He said, they've just turned them out by the droves.
They're handing out brochures.
He said, there's a feeling of
of activity and upbeat.
He said, the Democrats out here are absolutely demoralized.
He said, that poll just finished them.
And there's no sign of activity on our side.
He said, there's real momentum on our side.
And really, he called me.
He was very enthused.
He said, this is just a great feeling out here.
You've just come from San Francisco.
Apparently, Paul Hall has really moved into the Bay Area.
Great.
Very heavy.
What do you hear from Massachusetts?
Well, I've had several reports.
as a result of Mrs. Nixon's—the confrontation, which—all of which lead our people to say that we're going to squeak it out.
It's fifty-fifty.
Well, if we don't, what the hell?
Yeah, it's— Let that Massachusetts be where it belongs.
Fourteen Electro.
Well, I hate to do it, but I'd love to do it.
It's a personal thing.
I'd love to bring that one in.
But we've got to realize it's a long shot.
What about Michigan?
Well, Michigan, we're running some bussing ads.
on Monday, which I think is going to frame up Michigan.
We're seven points ahead, 47 or eight, 49, 42.
Is that what Detroit News has?
Detroit News will have that on Sunday.
49 what?
49, 42 was the preliminary figure.
Now they hadn't waited that.
We may get a little better break out of it because the black voting is very, very low, very apathetic.
That had closed a little bit in the past two
all of the UAW activity.
Oh, sure.
But that's still a hell of a lead, the weekend of the election.
And we're stepping up the anti-busting ads that we did on radio, and we have one on the Detroit News Monday afternoon that's, I think, a ball buster.
You figured Michigan know we can win?
Oh, yes.
Yes, sir.
Henry Cashin is from Michigan, talked to him today out there, and he said that two things are going for us.
One is the
working his fanny off.
What does Detroit News show him?
Four points.
He'll win.
If we win, he'll win.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yes, yeah.
But he's working his fanny off.
The Republicans are, as a result of that, the Republicans are really kind of up for it and working hard.
The ads this weekend, we're concentrating now a hell of a lot more into Detroit will help us.
Plus the fact that's where he made
And that's where it's been making all the news.
And that's bound—that's going to turn people off.
He's the glue?
Yeah, I don't think it's going to be—it doesn't compare with Muskie crying in the snow up in New Hampshire, but it's going to hurt him.
It's a lot different than Harry Truman calling Drew Pearson a— Oh, well, that's different, sure.
Yeah, because he was defending his daughter.
Well, it was kind of a—it's not worthy of a person running for prison.
That's correct.
Yeah.
You can say, give him hell, and the other fellow's a son of a bitch, but you don't say to a kid, kiss my ass.
That's right.
Yeah.
And it was—it was unnecessary.
I mean, it was—it just shows the guy's coming apart.
So that, having happened in Betel Creek, I think that's going to affect Michigan.
I think we're fine in Michigan, I think.
That's what he thought it would always be.
Yeah.
He's never been away from that.
Wisconsin, apparently, our situation is firmed up.
Oh, you think so?
That's the report I had this afternoon, Mr. President.
And we're doing very well in the blue-collar areas.
That's an interesting thing in this Harris poll.
Absolutely no change from early September in the Union vote, and no change in the Catholic
The union vote is 54 to 40, with us winning it.
That's the organized labor vote.
Uh-huh.
The Catholic's 59-35.
Well, that's down two points from the last one, but that's nothing.
54-40 on— That's just the usual closing of Democrats.
Well, a little bit, yeah.
Except with Democrats, we're 40, and the government's 53.
So that's a very, very strong showing.
My God, I could—
And that was considered a phenomenal percentage of the Democrats.
So we're in awfully good shape.
I'm not worried at all about Wisconsin.
I think there's too much of the Catholic and there's too much of the blue collar there for us to lose it.
I think the broadcast they did last night may have helped a bit on this thing, too, don't you think?
Yes, sir.
In the area that we needed help in.
higher income, affluent suburbanite, that was exactly the right talent.
That was just—and a marvelous contrast with McGovern.
He gives the appearance of a frantic campaigner.
That last night was a brilliant contrast with that.
Plus, he made some damn good points, particularly, I think, on the Vietnam thing, which you just put it in focus just right.
Cal was on CBS tonight saying that
took Henry's briefing down a peg or two, fine.
But it was what the people needed to hear from you, which is a hell of a lot different than hearing it from Kissinger.
That's right.
Well, if we took it down a peg or two, that's all right.
It's realistic.
Yeah, and then of course the Warriors today were playing it quite bullishly on Vietnam.
That's why the market moves.
Yep.
We have a settlement that's going to include all of the new China.
out some of the problems and we'll get it when we're ready to get it.
I like that.
It's strong.
I think we've got that issue absolutely positioned correctly.
All we need to do now is use Mel Laird tomorrow to answer whatever tonight and Bill Rogers to put it in perspective Sunday.
Well, he'll hit hard on it tonight.
He'll say we've blown it and missing that and the other thing.
I don't think people are listening to it anymore.
We've got to come back now with Laird and Rogers.
I agree.
Those are the two to do it.
Of course, I'll hit it hard, too.
That's right.
You'll have good opportunities to do it tomorrow.
Both of those fellows are primed to do it.
We have a little problem with the CBS, Mr. President, which I might mention to you.
They're on strike.
Too bad.
But the Vice President was scheduled to face the nation, if you remember.
We talked him into it.
That means, in effect, crossing a picket line.
McGovern is also scheduled to do it, and he's worked out a pretty neat gimmick.
He's going to do it from a non-union affiliate and let them tape it in.
We can't do that because of where the vice president is.
That's right.
Schultz and I talked tonight, and both of us at the moment are inclined to
Yes, sir.
Cancel them.
Absolutely.
Because they're on strike, exactly.
Well, it's a hard-hat union, you see.
It's the electrical workers.
Right.
IBEW.
Right.
Good.
So we—in a way, it's kind of a nice thing.
It sticks it to CBS.
And it really does.
You know, it hurts them.
It's in a sense—well, it isn't taking sides in it, but they'll interpret it that way.
And it is not crossing a picket line.
And if McGovern wants to, then we'll just have our union boys.
And have them hit him like hell.
Oh, Jesus.
When I talked to Fitzsimmons tonight, he said, if the dumb son of a bitch does that, he said, we'll just claim him.
Good.
He said, if Agnew does it, then we'll shut up.
No, he won't.
I think it's better if...
He won't.
He won't.
No, sir, we don't want him on that silly program anyway.
If you agree, Schultz and I feel strongly that we should make that decision without talking to him.
You go ahead.
We're knocking hell out of this demonstrator issue, Mr. President.
Are you?
Yeah.
Rizzo took it on today.
What did he say?
Oh, he did.
As only Rizzo could do it.
He talked about all those damn liberals that are trying to shut us up.
By God, the only way they're going to stop me is by voting me out of office.
Oh, he hit him.
God, he really hit him very hard.
Good.
Bill demanded an apology again today.
I think that
He came out of that yesterday a little bit ahead because it got visibility for the issue of the people who were harassing Mrs. Nixon in particular in Boston.
That turned the Boston story into a real national story.
Mankiewicz was pretty cute trying to blame it back on the Vice President, but I just somehow don't think he... Well, I don't think there's any credibility left on that side.
As I said, Hughes the demonstrator has been infringing upon the rights of citizens who want to hear President Nixon
I think the day has arrived for everyone to question whether these liberals have the right to disrupt others, the right to attend the public event.
I tell you what these liberals have to do to disrupt these events is to knock me out of the box at the next election because, by God, they're going to have to take me on.
So I think we'll continue to hammer them on that.
Billy Graham's thing has moved to
very well, his statement supporting us, supporting you.
And on the integrity and on the morality issue, he came through very well.
So I think it's—with your campaigning and with the other side looking very weak at the moment, I think we're going into the weekend just about as strong as we could be.
It's rather good that I'm out tomorrow, really.
Yes.
Well, it ends—frankly, we're bringing the campaign to an end with you on the upswing.
And McGovern really looking pretty pitiful.
Mr. President, he had to cancel out some of the engagements today to take the thing tonight.
They had an interview with Mankiewicz, who really looked whipped on the evening news tonight when she was
kind of previewing the speech and apologizing for McGill and having missed a scheduled stop.
Yeah, you just have that sense of it.
You just have that feeling that they're really... Coming apart, maybe.
Yeah, really coming apart.
They've got to be coming apart.
Good God, they've got to be.
Well, Eagleton won't do a radio tape for them, a television tape that they wanted this weekend.
He's refusing to do it.
They're just all those signs of the...
of the real beating coming.
And you're absolutely right about the stock market.
That gives the whole week kind of an upbeat note.
The wholesale price story yesterday played great.
The unemployment story today I thought played very straight.
And the networks played it straight.
It was a big month for an increase in employment.
Well, we'll live through it.
It's a good feeling.
You don't sound tired, but you should.
Oh, I'm fine.
No, no, it was not that bad.
It was long.
It was seven hours, eight hours on a plane.
Well, that's rough, man.
Three rallies, put it.
Oh, the rallies were easy, but the plane rides were long.
Well, anyway, we'll wind her up tomorrow, huh?
We'll keep right on her.
Yes, sir.
Good.
Thank you, Mr. President.