{"conversationCode":"034-030","tapeNumber":34,"conversationNumber":30,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-034-030","startDateTime":"1972-12-10T17:04:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1972-12-10T17:55:00.000Z","startDate":"10-Dec-1972","startTime":"12:04 PM","endDate":"10-Dec-1972","endTime":"12:55 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Dobrynin, Anatoliy F.;","description":"On December 10, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Anatoliy F. Dobrynin talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:04 pm and 12:55 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 034-030 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.2","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part II","chronReleaseDate":"2-Dec-2008","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 34-30\n\nDate: December 10, 1972\nTime: 12:04 pm – unknown before 12:55 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin.\n\n[See Conversation No. 384-4C]\n\n       Dobrynin’s schedule\n\n       Expression of appreciation\n            -Trip by [Tricia Nixon Cox and Edward R. F. Cox]\n                  -Irini Dobrynin\n\f                                            -25-\n\n                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                           Conversation No. 34-30 (cont’d)\n\n                  -Leonid I. Brezhnev\n\n       Vietnam\n            -Negotiations\n                 -Expression of appreciation\n                 -The President’s role\n                 -Status\n                       -October 8, 1972\n                 -Withdrawal of North Vietnamese forces from South Vietnam\n                       -Nguyen Van Thieu\n                             -The President’s role\n                 -Demilitarized zone [DMZ]\n                       -Meaning\n                       -Compromise language\n                             -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.\n                       -US-Soviet Union relations\n                             -Brezhnev\n                       -Henry A. Kissinger\n                       -Haig\n                       -Brezhnev\n\nThe President and Haig talked with Anatoliy Dobrynin.\n\n                        -Compromise\n                            -Kissinger\n                            -Language\n                                  -Civilian movement\n                                  -Return to original\n                                        -December 11, 1972\n                            -Post settlement period\n                                  -Economic assistance\n                                        -Congress\n                                  -Victory claims\n                                  -US-Soviet Union relations\n                            -October 26, 1972\n                            -November [20, 1972] meeting\n                            -Meeting\n                                  -Time\n                                        -Moscow\n                                        -Hanoi\n\f                                                       -26-\n\n                       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                                             Conversation No. 34-30 (cont’d)\n\n                                                   -Paris\n                                                   -Technical details\n                                                   -Saigon","filename":["034-030.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Dobrynin, Anatoliy F."],"prevCode":"034-029","nextCode":"034-031","transcript":[{"start":0.74,"end":4.37,"text":"Oh, good morning, Mr. President."},{"start":4.38,"end":5.81,"text":"I hope we didn't get you up too early."},{"start":6.01,"end":6.99,"text":"No, no, thank you."},{"start":7.27,"end":10.65,"text":"You see, now is the time we have to be early."},{"start":10.85,"end":12.46,"text":"That's right."},{"start":14.06,"end":14.3,"text":"Mr."},{"start":14.32,"end":20.95,"text":"Ambassador, I had a couple of personal things and then one substantive thing I wanted to talk to you about briefly, if I could."},{"start":20.99,"end":21.47,"text":"Yes, of course."},{"start":22.39,"end":30.02,"text":"First, to thank you for the very gracious way that you and Mrs. Dobrynin"},{"start":30.64,"end":34.16,"text":"are helping our children on their trip."},{"start":34.18,"end":35.47,"text":"They're looking forward to it."},{"start":35.49,"end":37.04,"text":"It'll be the high point of their"},{"start":37.39,"end":40.72,"text":"travel, and I just hope they aren't too much bother to your people."},{"start":40.9,"end":43.36,"text":"Oh, they're really nice kids, kids, really very nice."},{"start":43.56,"end":45.46,"text":"We enjoyed being with them the whole evening."},{"start":45.78,"end":54.29,"text":"Well, they told me, and they just had a wonderful time, the movies and everything, and they'll be good representatives over there."},{"start":54.33,"end":56.17,"text":"I'm sure about it, no doubt."},{"start":56.19,"end":61.04,"text":"And Mr. President, if I discuss with him when I was in Moscow, he will take care of it."},{"start":62.05,"end":65.77,"text":"He asked me to tell you that he will take care about everything will go right."},{"start":65.79,"end":68.12,"text":"You shouldn't bother."},{"start":68.34,"end":70.82,"text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"start":70.94,"end":72.31,"text":"All right."},{"start":72.93,"end":85.71,"text":"The second point is that I wanted to thank you for, as you know, I'm very much on top of these negotiations and so forth, and I want to thank you for the"},{"start":86.26,"end":88.63,"text":"work that you have done, you and your government."},{"start":88.65,"end":94.17,"text":"And without you and your government, well, you know, we've got our problem."},{"start":94.25,"end":97.22,"text":"And I've handled that personally, as you know."},{"start":97.4,"end":98.08,"text":"I know."},{"start":98.52,"end":105.09,"text":"And I've gotten that coming along, although it's tough."},{"start":105.25,"end":108.81,"text":"I mean, I must say it's tough."},{"start":108.86,"end":113.92,"text":"But you've got—you and your government have the other problem."},{"start":114.56,"end":116.34,"text":"There's really only one issue left."},{"start":118.71,"end":118.81,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":118.83,"end":124.13,"text":"And it's the issue really is to me it's hard."},{"start":124.15,"end":135.88,"text":"I just think very, very hard for me to understand how they can go back on what we had agreed on October 8."},{"start":137.14,"end":142.53,"text":"I just have to take a position on that which is"},{"start":143.11,"end":155.73,"text":"I want you to know that I'm not doing it in order to, you know, I don't want to give you an impossible problem, but I've had to put some impossible problems to chew, you know, like the withdrawal of forces, and I've done it."},{"start":156.61,"end":162.09,"text":"And on this one, like the DMZ, you and I know what the DMZ means."},{"start":163.36,"end":167.44,"text":"Symbolically, we know also what it means as a matter of fact."},{"start":168.36,"end":172.55,"text":"And on this one, we just can't let these talks fail."},{"start":173.17,"end":174.23,"text":"to that one item."},{"start":174.27,"end":183.06,"text":"And I just wanted you to know that I—that when Haig reported to me about some compromise language, I said that just wouldn't do."},{"start":184.02,"end":188.49,"text":"I just think we have to have the—I mean, we agreed to this language long ago."},{"start":188.53,"end":190.55,"text":"It's the right kind of language."},{"start":191.27,"end":198.5,"text":"And I wanted—I just want you to know that—hear it directly from me, you see?"},{"start":198.76,"end":199.35,"text":"Yes, I do."},{"start":199.37,"end":201.91,"text":"Now, I don't say this for the purpose of"},{"start":202.41,"end":206.94,"text":"You know I'll never do this because, let me put it quite candidly."},{"start":207.3,"end":208.26,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":208.28,"end":214.17,"text":"Mr. Brezhnev and I and your government and I, we got bigger fish to fry than this damn thing."},{"start":214.19,"end":214.35,"text":"Exactly."},{"start":214.37,"end":219.22,"text":"The main thing is to get this one out of the damn frying pan so that we can get busy on with other things."},{"start":219.26,"end":220.92,"text":"We'll go on with the other things anyway."},{"start":220.98,"end":222.12,"text":"You understand, not that."},{"start":222.72,"end":223.1,"text":"Yeah, I understand."},{"start":223.12,"end":224.76,"text":"But this always is an irritant."},{"start":225.26,"end":226.61,"text":"And now is the opportunity."},{"start":226.69,"end":230.95,"text":"And frankly, I think the biggest step toward..."},{"start":231.79,"end":243.25,"text":"toward the great goal that Mr. Barstaff and I are working together and that you and Henry and all of us have been working for to get this thing out of the way and out of the way tomorrow."},{"start":243.31,"end":249.46,"text":"But we just can't let this one clause where we had agreed on a clause"},{"start":249.71,"end":250.84,"text":"And then it turned around."},{"start":251.31,"end":253.84,"text":"We just can't get it to turn, to stop."},{"start":253.86,"end":256.78,"text":"But that's, see, I just want you to know how I felt about it."},{"start":257.79,"end":260.25,"text":"And if you would convey it, I would appreciate it."},{"start":260.61,"end":261.61,"text":"I will definitely."},{"start":261.63,"end":262.65,"text":"And thank you very much, Mr. ."},{"start":262.67,"end":267.32,"text":"And I'll, I just like to take one minute."},{"start":267.48,"end":268.92,"text":"Al Haig is here with me."},{"start":268.96,"end":269.66,"text":"Yes."},{"start":269.68,"end":272.51,"text":"And if there's any, I just, he's listening."},{"start":272.55,"end":275.87,"text":"And if he has any technical thing to add, I'll have him say a word to you."},{"start":277.39,"end":277.49,"text":"Okay."},{"start":278.23,"end":280.38,"text":"I'll stay on the line with you."},{"start":280.39,"end":281.16,"text":"Do you have another minute?"},{"start":281.56,"end":282.28,"text":"Yes, of course."},{"start":282.3,"end":282.58,"text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":282.62,"end":283.08,"text":"Of course."},{"start":283.1,"end":284.1,"text":"All right, here's Haig."},{"start":284.24,"end":286,"text":"Thank you very much, Mr. President."},{"start":286.22,"end":288.19,"text":"And on the first point, it's a real pleasure."},{"start":288.21,"end":291.59,"text":"On the second, I will send a message to Mr. President."},{"start":291.61,"end":292.81,"text":"Yes, thank you very much."},{"start":293.01,"end":293.21,"text":"Good."},{"start":293.23,"end":293.51,"text":"Mr."},{"start":293.53,"end":296.88,"text":"Ambassador, this was the issue I told you this morning."},{"start":296.9,"end":302.47,"text":"If I understand correctly, the compromise you proposed is not good, so you're coming to that one, which was before, yes?"},{"start":302.85,"end":303.35,"text":"Yes."},{"start":303.53,"end":305.11,"text":"But you see, Mr."},{"start":305.13,"end":308.15,"text":"Ambassador, the compromise was something that..."},{"start":308.68,"end":313.08,"text":"you know, Henry, everybody there, they all get tired and they say we will compromise."},{"start":313.12,"end":320.54,"text":"And he hadn't recognized the fact that I've got, you know, I've got to get the other people in line."},{"start":321.36,"end":323.82,"text":"And I just, the compromise won't do."},{"start":325.23,"end":327.71,"text":"And it isn't all that important."},{"start":329.29,"end":331.26,"text":"Hell, the DMZ is there."},{"start":331.49,"end":347.75,"text":"It's written into everything, and so to put in some language about whether civilians move across or this or that, I think it's just nonsense, really, really to have a talk break down about such a small issue."},{"start":347.76,"end":348.2,"text":"Yeah, I understand."},{"start":348.23,"end":358.69,"text":"See, that's my feeling, and I want you to know how that I felt here, that we just had to, we're going to have to insist tomorrow on the original language, and I just want you to know that"},{"start":359.44,"end":367.53,"text":"If that is done, then we're going to be able to do other things that are very important, because when we come right down to it, let's look at it."},{"start":368.01,"end":372.98,"text":"North Vietnam is a dragon huge like it is on us."},{"start":374.08,"end":388.7,"text":"Then I can get into the Congress, and I can get some of that economic assistance and so forth that they need, and I can do it on a strong, positive note, which I want to do, because I just..."},{"start":388.93,"end":393.58,"text":"and this is no thought of defeating anybody or anything."},{"start":393.64,"end":399.78,"text":"It's going to be one of those things where neither side, most sides will claim victory, neither will have it."},{"start":400.22,"end":401.32,"text":"The main thing is"},{"start":401.59,"end":404.29,"text":"that it will, what we're trying to do here, Mr."},{"start":404.31,"end":411.28,"text":"Ambassador, to accomplish, which I know you want and we want, we want to remove this irritant between our relations."},{"start":411.44,"end":412.52,"text":"That's the real thing."},{"start":413.18,"end":419.51,"text":"We can't allow this damn place to interfere in the relations between the Soviet Union and the United States."},{"start":419.65,"end":420.85,"text":"That's really what it gets down to."},{"start":420.87,"end":423.55,"text":"And this is what our approach to you is."},{"start":423.57,"end":424.71,"text":"This is exactly it."},{"start":424.74,"end":425.74,"text":"The only one question, Mr. President."},{"start":425.8,"end":426.1,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":426.14,"end":426.84,"text":"You referred to"},{"start":427.29,"end":434.01,"text":"or the formulation of October 8, but my impression is that this question of GMZ really arises only on a"},{"start":434.17,"end":436.28,"text":"the previous session, which was two weeks ago."},{"start":437.1,"end":438.44,"text":"Well, that's right, that October 26th."},{"start":439.38,"end":440.9,"text":"Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I got..."},{"start":440.92,"end":441.72,"text":"So it was not..."},{"start":441.96,"end":443.48,"text":"I had my, no, I had my day wrong."},{"start":443.74,"end":447.13,"text":"October 26th is what I, if I said October, I meant October 26th."},{"start":447.31,"end":449.59,"text":"When they have the last meeting, the last previous one."},{"start":449.89,"end":452.79,"text":"That's right, that's right, it was the October 26th one, that's what I meant."},{"start":453.31,"end":453.65,"text":"I see."},{"start":453.81,"end":457.34,"text":"No, the October 8th one was the first one, before they got this spelled out."},{"start":457.38,"end":462.87,"text":"Then it was, when they have the next meeting, I think it was really, even in November,"},{"start":463.4,"end":464,"text":"Right."},{"start":464.02,"end":465.08,"text":"Yes, and then ."},{"start":465.82,"end":466.77,"text":"Right, right, I know."},{"start":467.05,"end":467.39,"text":"It's clear."},{"start":467.97,"end":473.12,"text":"But the point is that we came to that position, we had an agreement on it, and then now they..."},{"start":473.13,"end":475.1,"text":"Yes, we just want to have that agreement which was agreed."},{"start":475.22,"end":476.06,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":476.3,"end":487.44,"text":"And we just want to go to the language that we did agree to at one point and just have it done with, and then we'll, I can assure you, you'll have every possible support from our side."},{"start":488.07,"end":491.58,"text":"And we would hope also from your side."},{"start":491.8,"end":493.1,"text":"Yeah, I understand."},{"start":493.12,"end":495.98,"text":"The only thing is there's no rather short time left."},{"start":496.06,"end":497.79,"text":"In Moscow it's already midnight."},{"start":498.31,"end":502.59,"text":"The meeting will be tomorrow morning, so it's rather short time."},{"start":503.41,"end":504.44,"text":"You understand what I mean?"},{"start":504.54,"end":508.22,"text":"It's a physical possibility."},{"start":508.28,"end":511.02,"text":"Now it's in Moscow."},{"start":511.04,"end":513.77,"text":"How could we go to 3 o'clock tomorrow afternoon?"},{"start":514.67,"end":516.19,"text":"Something maybe..."},{"start":516.37,"end":517.91,"text":"I'll tell you what we'll do."},{"start":518.17,"end":521.82,"text":"Let me see if I can get Henry to have the meeting at 3 o'clock tomorrow afternoon."},{"start":521.84,"end":522.46,"text":"Would that be better?"},{"start":522.66,"end":530.25,"text":"Yes, I think it's a little bit better, but still maybe even in the evening, because now I have to send Moscow to Hanoi."},{"start":530.53,"end":531.83,"text":"Oh, boy."},{"start":532.15,"end":534.01,"text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"start":534.55,"end":535.01,"text":"Right."},{"start":535.25,"end":535.59,"text":"I get it."},{"start":535.95,"end":538.19,"text":"All right."},{"start":538.95,"end":540.86,"text":"I'll get at that right now."},{"start":540.88,"end":542.72,"text":"They're working on technical details anyway."},{"start":542.74,"end":543.58,"text":"I would just say they do."},{"start":543.56,"end":545.92,"text":"They might have, but then we wait a little bit earlier."},{"start":545.94,"end":547.36,"text":"I don't know what will be the final result."},{"start":547.38,"end":550.55,"text":"They could meet by, say, 3 or 4 in the afternoon."},{"start":550.81,"end":556.16,"text":"Yes, I'm sure that my government will interfere, but I don't know what will be the final response of Hanoi."},{"start":556.48,"end":557.04,"text":"I understand."},{"start":557.46,"end":563.67,"text":"And I can assure you that when I talk to Saigon, I can't tell you what they're going to do either."},{"start":563.69,"end":569.72,"text":"But I would like to have a time, because I know for my government, to have a time to be in communication with Hanoi."},{"start":569.94,"end":571.74,"text":"But I just wanted to know you."},{"start":571.72,"end":572.8,"text":"how strongly I felt."},{"start":572.83,"end":578.64,"text":"It isn't a matter of me trying to embarrass or humiliate him."},{"start":578.7,"end":582.01,"text":"It's just one of those things that this is what's going to make or break the deal."},{"start":582.29,"end":583.95,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":584.05,"end":584.67,"text":"Okay."},{"start":584.69,"end":584.93,"text":"All right."},{"start":585.13,"end":585.8,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":585.82,"end":587.32,"text":"Thank you very much."},{"start":588.32,"end":588.48,"text":"Bye-bye."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Ambassador Anatoliy Dobrynin engaged in a diplomatic call to address a final sticking point in the Vietnam peace negotiations regarding the status of the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). Nixon expressed his firm insistence on returning to previously agreed-upon language, emphasizing that this resolution was essential to removing an irritant from U.S.-Soviet relations and enabling future cooperation. Accompanied by Alexander Haig, Nixon requested that Dobrynin convey this position to Moscow and Hanoi, resulting in a decision to coordinate a follow-up meeting to finalize technical details.","topics":["Vietnam War","DMZ","US-Soviet Relations","Peace Negotiations","Anatoliy Dobrynin","Alexander Haig"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T04:29:05.987Z"},"topicSlugs":["vietnam-war","dmz","us-soviet-relations","peace-negotiations","anatoliy-dobrynin","alexander-haig"],"audioDurationSec":595,"audioFiles":[{"file":"034-030.mp3","bytes":14272521,"durationSec":594.56,"bitrate":192041,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:29.541Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:41.141Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/034-030.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/034-030","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/34/conversation-034-030","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}