Conversation 034-087

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Hello.

Senator Mansfield, sir.

Hello.

Mike?

Yes, Mr. President.

Where did I find you?

At work.

Are you here in Washington?

Yes.

Oh, that's great.

Mike, what I wanted to tell you, I'm a little at work, too, you know, trying to wind up a few things, appointments and this and that and the other things.

And, you know, I did something that's quite unusual.

Instead of taking off after the election, I said, all right,

I didn't give anybody off.

I said on December 15th you can all take off and take off a week or two weeks.

But anyway, that's what we've done.

What I wanted to talk to you about, I met with Hugh yesterday.

As a matter of fact, he wanted to come in and chat about a few things, including who's going to be the head of the GSA, which I'm sure you don't give a damn about and I don't either.

What I told, I sort of broke this into Hugh and I haven't talked to Carl because I tried to call him today and he's, I don't know, he's out of touch.

I don't know how you can reach him.

But it's just as well.

I just want you to know about it and I'll get Carl tomorrow or the next day or sometime.

What I would like to do when you all get back, and I don't think we should try to do this until you do get back, because it's going to, as I've found, it's just hard to find enough people around.

I mean, you're around the rest.

Rather than having a—getting myself—and I told you this, and I've talked to Bill Timmons about it—getting myself tied down to a weekly meeting with just Republican leaders, you know, the whole leadership.

What I'm going to do is to have, of course, a sort of a monthly meeting with, well, let's say even biweekly, or sometimes it'll be a weekly if it's something that we have to get at with our leadership, which I should do.

And I think you realize I have that responsibility.

But what I would like to do, if you would be willing, is to have occasions, an occasion on a fairly regular basis where

if we could get the right kind of group, and here's the problem, if we could get a small bipartisan group where we sit down and talk about things where, you know, on not saying every other Tuesday or something, but on a fairly regular basis.

Now, I was thinking of you, well, let me start with the Republican side.

In the Senate, it would be,

just the two, Scott and Griffin.

On your side, it would be yourself and whoever you, who was it, Bird or Bird.

On the Democratic side, it'll be Albert and whoever replaces Boggs.

And, of course, on the Republican side, Ford and Ahrens.

We would sit down and just chat about the, perhaps...

about the general workload and so forth and so on that we have.

The reason that I say this is that I do not want to get, and we all know we're going to have our differences, but I don't want to get into business

The Congress and the President and the White House are in total confrontation.

There's no reason for that.

I don't think you want to.

I agree completely.

And you've made some very good statements on it.

Right.

But what I'd like for you to do, if you would, is to think about this a bit as to how we can work this out.

Now, in addition to that, I would like to, of course, continue the situation where

you and I get together and just chat now and then because, you know, we never know who's going to talk after some of these things.

That's right.

And so you and I will have a talk, and now and then I'll get Carl in.

But usually with him, he always insists that his second fellow, you know, I mean, it's a little different situation there.

But what I'm thinking about here is, as you see, is a special edition where we have this in.

Now, carrying it a step further,

What we have is we will have some things on reorganization, which do not involve, incidentally, any difference in terms of the relationship of the departments with the Congress, but will involve how I deal with departments.

What I want to do then is to bring in the key committee chairman, like a Holyfield,

and whoever is the Republican, I don't know who it is on our side, and we chat the whole thing over.

Now, there are a few oddball things involved here.

There's a special problem with Russell Long.

There's a special problem with Wilbur Mills.

Yeah.

I have to handle those somewhat separately.

That's right.

But bring them in.

There's sometimes even a George Mahon I've got to see separately.

Not always, although George is.

what I was thinking, if you could think this over, because I've got, I'm going to do all the Christmas stuff over the next two or three days and try to get away on the 19th for a week off, going to Florida.

I'd like to have a meeting with you, just you and me alone, and maybe if you could sort of, you and I could chat as to what is the best way to do it.

Now, I am not suggesting that as a result of this we have sort of a

a situation where it's all a permanent honeymoon and the rest.

I know there are going to be battles on this and that and the other thing, and we understand that.

But I am suggesting that there are some areas where, perhaps a considerable number of areas, where we can and should just work together and, well, not take energy.

Scoop Jackson came in to see me.

He'd taken a trip abroad.

And I hope he has a chance to talk to you.

He gave me an excellent report.

He'd been in the Mideast and the rest.

He's terribly concerned about the energy crisis and the rest.

Now, energy is something that cuts across party lines.

It cuts across the executive lines.

We've got to get the Congress in on the act.

In fact, it cuts across so many executive lines, it's the one area that I can't

luck off to any one of the White—any one of the departments, and we've got to keep it out of the White House.

That's right.

But I just talked to John Erich, and after that I talked to Scoop, and I said, look, maybe we can work out a situation where the House or the Senate or both, that they would engage in a cooperative action here.

Because you see, it involves not only oil in the Mideast and in the United States, it

It involves conversion of coal to gas.

It involves the enormously important decision we're going to have to make with regard to the Russian gas field, which is not only energy but politics.

And it involves, of course, our relationships in the Mideast.

How do we play the Israeli thing in terms of the Saudis?

You can see how it crosses across everything and why I've got to keep it here.

But on the other hand,

the Congress should be in on the takeoff on such a thing.

You see what I mean?

What I'm doing here, Mike, is really, frankly, trying to give you my sense of the thing so that you could just sort of put it in the back of your mind, mull it over.

There's no hurry.

And then perhaps we could sit down shortly after the first of the year.

you know, before Congress gets in, about the first or second, about the second.

Fine.

How's that sound to you?

Fine.

And how does the idea sound to you?

I mean, the general ideas.

Excellent.

In other words, trying to find a new way for us to work together.

Right.

Because as I look at the American political scene, I had a long talk with John Connolly about this recently, and, you know, people have their job, and everybody respects his political sagacity.

He thinks that for years to come, we may have situations where

where people are going to vote men rather than party.

Right.

Now, if they vote men rather than party, and we continue to act as if it's party versus party, we're going to have a disastrous government in the United States.

And we're both going to lose.

Don't you think so?

Right.

No question.

And that's why I feel that maybe we have an opportunity here to think in terms of how with a divided, with the Congress on the one side and the President on the other side,

that we just find areas where we can agree, where we reduce the partisan, the totally partisan thing, to those areas where it has to be.

We both understand partisan politics.

But after all, there's no election coming up, thank God, for another four years.

And I think that if a few sensible people can sit around and talk this way, that we can work something out.

I think your ideas are good, Mr. President.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll go at least halfway and a little bit more.

Right.

Now, let me say, we're going to have some problems on it.

I've got some problems.

I mean, you've got, oh, for example, I've got some hard rock partisans on my side that say, if I got just meet with Republicans, don't meet with the Democrats.

You've got some partisans that I know don't feel this way at all.

But I'm speaking about the responsible guys.

I mean, it's just a question of liberal or conservative, but people that really are trying to think of ways we can work together.

And at least we can talk about it.

If we can work it out fine.

If we can't, then we'll try to do business the way we used to.

But the reason that I came to this conclusion is that Timmons, who has very great sagacity on this sort of thing, to my—even despite his youth—when I talked with him a week ago at Camp David,

And he came in with the usual schemes and so forth, not the usual schemes.

He said, look, we just can't go forward with the fact that the president, sitting in the White House each week, meets with the Republican leadership.

What's he doing?

He's meeting with the minority.

What the hell can the minority accomplish without the majority?

You see?

Right.

And so what I'm not—I am not suggesting that each week we substitute for that a bipartisan meeting, which would, of course— But I am suggesting that we pick certain areas where we work together and try to work the thing out.

You see what I mean?

I do, and I agree.

And if you could give it some thought.

Now, understand, my thinking is not nailed down.

I don't know quite how to work it.

And I realize that with the personalities, that there are various people, the ones I've mentioned, and others, where you've got to just do them one-on-one.

But on the other hand, perhaps we can work some things out that could be very cooperative.

Well, I'm sure we can, and we certainly ought to at least try.

Then let me say, if you...

on your own, I don't mean on your own, but you're at liberty to, if you would like, discuss it with a Bob Bird or anybody you like to see what you can come up with.

The one thing I would say is try to discuss it in a way that we don't get it in the press.

Right.

Because then I'm going to have to answer to Barry Goldwater and a few others and say, what the hell are you doing here?

You didn't ask us.

That's right.

because I'm keeping this very closely, although I haven't gone into it in detail with Hugh, except to tell Hugh that there were going to be more bipartisan meetings than there had been previously, and less partisan meetings, so he understands it.

Oh, yes.

He's an old pro.

Well, he understands it.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Okay, Mr. President, I'll see you sometime on the second then.

All right, fine.

About the second, I think, is that Congress gets in the third?

Yeah.

Fine.

Yeah, and one more thing.

Yeah, we, of course, oh, I should, yeah, go ahead.

Are you going to keep Tom Korologis up here?

Yes.

He's a good man.

I'm delighted.

You like him, don't you?

Oh, I do.

Tom has understanding, totally understanding of this whole deal, and he will, and frankly, if you would, it would be very helpful if you would bring him in and sit him down and tell him how you think it ought to work.

Okay.

And you can talk to him in total confidence.

Good enough.

The only other time we might see each other, of course, as you know, could be the Truman thing.

Yeah.

If that develops, we will have to, you know, we'll... That's right.

I'll go down, of course.

Yeah.

And, I mean, it's, we'll, I'll have Tom and be in touch with Hughes to me because we'll have a fleet practically going down there because everybody should and will want to go.

Yeah.

I will not be able to go, incidentally, to the Barb's memorial service.

It's a little different situation anyway, you know, because you see, it isn't like Allen Ellender.

I mean, you still don't know.

That's right.

You're not totally sure.

So my wife is going, Pat's going, but I thought I shouldn't.

Does that sound all right?

That sounds great, yes.

All right.

Okay, Mr. President.

All right.

If anything happens, I'll get in touch with Dr. Truman.

I'll see Tom and get together on the 2nd.

Great.

Bye, Mr. President.

Bye.