Conversation 035-002

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Hello.

Mr. Colson, sir.

Yeah.

Yes, sir, Mr. President.

Would you get everybody out of town all right?

Well, no.

I think we got a few here in town.

Henry left in Haldeman, didn't he?

Henry has left.

I didn't know about Bob.

He was going to the West Coast today, too.

I thought he was.

Trying to get early and take off four or five days, too, because he works so goddamn hard and seldom gets off.

Oh, yeah.

It's a little good for Bob to get out sometimes, too.

So fine.

No, I was talking to Henry when you called in, right after you and I talked.

Fine.

I never got to finish the conversation with him, but I think I made the point.

Fine, fine.

Well, he was in good shape.

I think he understood it.

And I just said for him, I said, the main thing is just not say anything.

Right.

He's gone out there to Palm Springs.

I said, right now, just...

Just hold your fire.

There'll be a time.

We'll have a time when we're ready.

Well, I had Costa and Scali in, and I worked them over this afternoon trying to get their best judgment.

I think they're both level-headed fellows.

Neither one of them feel we should do anything this week.

This week.

That's right.

Well, that's the point, and that's what I want you to tell everybody.

Right.

Well, Ziegler won't have a problem, but Warren, just don't comment on a damn thing.

Right.

They don't need to.

They, you know, the little...

business.

We're going out to the Truman thing tomorrow.

That helps, actually, Mr. President.

I think, to a certain extent, it diverts to another story.

You know, it's always a question of what the hell's a story.

It was the earthquake for a couple of days, and now it's the Truman thing for a couple of days, and they get back, well, what's new in Vietnam?

There's nothing new.

Well, you see, the Truman thing does something else important.

The Truman thing shows you out front

I mean, he'll be on television tomorrow night going to the funeral.

And the one point that I think Scali and Clawson made that is a valid point, I hadn't thought of it, frankly, is that the public hasn't seen you active quite enough.

In other words, this...

It's a good feeling for the public to see the president, and they know the president is there, and he's in charge, and he's in command.

I won't be saying anything, of course.

You don't need to.

It's just the general, because I don't believe in saying anything until after the family's had a chance to say what they want to say.

Of course, your statement today has run beautifully.

Yeah, well, that's run, see.

No, but it isn't so much saying anything.

It's just that you're there—

You are there representing all of the American people at the funeral or at a memorial service for a dead president.

That's all you need to do.

But that's good, because then, of course, we're in charge.

That's right.

The news Thursday, then, of course, is the funeral again, and there'll be documentaries on Truman's life.

Now you're to the weekend, when everybody is...

The weekend, you know damn well it's going to be football.

Totally.

just like this weekend was yeah and this one even more with the rose bowl uh you see the bowl games come new year's day whereas uh so you've got really you've really got saturday you've got sunday and monday both right exactly exactly and saturday people are taking either

They're partying or they're...

It's the weekend.

Yeah, it's the weekend.

And it's a...

But they both agreed Henry should not say anything.

Yes, they both agreed Henry should not, that Rogers should not.

Well, Rogers can't.

I mean, there's a right to have him have to do anything.

And I don't think on... And Laird, I think nothing but the thing...

I'll tell you, the other reason is that there are, frankly, things going on we can't talk about.

We just...

Right now, we're playing a very tough poker game.

Yep.

And I'd rather...

If we can avoid saying anything, it's better...

I think we'd better just ride it right through.

Is that my point?

Yes, sir.

I've talked to Timmons.

He says that his people are just scattered all over the hell and gone.

He can't reach them even to talk to them.

So his attitude is that we're going to hear nothing out of the Congress for the next week until they get back.

And then if there's no change in the situation, they'll raise a lot of hell next week.

That's right.

That's all right.

It'll be different.

I mean, there'll be something happening.

That's a good suggestion.

They're not going to be just...

The main point is, you see, we can't talk about you or anybody else what may develop, because nobody knows.

But you can be damn sure we're never not thinking.

Oh.

And I'm usually thinking of some things Henry may not be thinking of.

But go ahead.

Well, the other point that...

I don't know whether Clawson or Scully came up with, but it's kind of an interesting one.

they had the feeling that if in the course of the next week, or next week, something like that POW was, not POWs, but any kind of an event where you could drop in and say something on the subject of Vietnam in a controlled circumstance that the networks would have to carry,

that this would be useful.

Beyond that, they don't...

I mean, they totally agree that it would have been a mistake to speak to the country.

Beyond that, though, if, on the other hand, we have an event, a development... That totally knocks that out.

That's right.

You shouldn't speak if there's a development.

If there's no development, then you have to speak.

Well, their feeling, and I think... You see my point?

Yes, sir.

That's what I have in mind.

No, their point and I... Don't go out yakking.

You're defensive as hell.

That's right.

And they agree that it would have been bad for you to speak to the nation up to now, and it would be bad now

And it would be bad next week because it would escalate it into too much of a controversy.

Their only point, and I share this, is that if there's no substantive development by the middle of next week, then the American people need some explanation of why it is we're continuing to bomb and that it isn't simply an exercise in trying to decimate a country.

There's reasons for it.

And that could be best stated if you had a...

It's too damn bad we aren't decimating the country.

We're doing.

Let me say, we're doing one hell of a lot.

But their war-making capabilities, as I told you, are really...

They've been clobbered this time because I decided that if we had to take this move, I told them that's what I had more up there for.

I said, now look here.

May 8th, we mined, we bombed.

We did a hell of a lot, and it sent them back a year.

It says now we're going to send them back two years.

The targets they had have been really something.

Everything except, of course, we're avoiding civilians.

I mean, even with all the squinting about civilians, believe me, if we were trying, the goddamn place would be leveled.

Oh, sure.

Leveled.

Well, I think that, no, I...

I think the only point that, the more I've thought about this all day and talked to people and gotten reactions, the only point is the one Sendlinger made this weekend.

I think he's absolutely right that at some point, somebody's got to simply say, well, here's the... Well, let us suppose there are several possibilities.

One, there is the possibility, and it's only a possibility, that the North Vietnamese decide to talk again, I mean, to negotiate again.

That takes care of itself.

That's basically like going to Moscow after May 8th.

Exactly.

But mainly, they talk in spite of them.

I mean, you hit them, and they said, all right, we'll talk.

Most people think it's because we hit them that they talk.

They'll be totally right.

Yeah, that's right.

No, they may not.

If they don't, then you go to another option, which we don't talk about, and that is that

We then come up with a new plan on the POW side, bomb POWs and so forth.

I think the American people would bomb for a generation to get the POWs back.

No question about it.

Don't you agree?

Three to one.

And when I put that on, particularly after I say it, because we'll say here they are and we don't offer anything, we'll get out.

We'll withdraw all our forces.

We will stop the bombing.

We will stop the mining.

You must return our POWs, and all we will do is to assist the South Vietnamese to the extent you receive assistance from your allies, period.

That is so fair.

That will devastate them, I'll tell you.

There you'll get 75% to 80% approval, and that's why I'm not too anxious that...

But they come back and negotiate.

But if they negotiate, of course, well, I don't know.

That's the best thing, actually.

Well, negotiating, if it leads to something, is the best thing.

Well, that's what I mean.

That's what I mean.

If they negotiate, what you understand, we will not accept the negotiation unless it's on conditions it'll end it.

That's the key.

No more.

No more, no.

There'll be one more.

No more.

And that's it.

No, I think you're... Not any event.

It's one of those things.

It's a tough decision.

It's a hard thing to do and so forth.

In the end, people appreciate the fact that you do the tough things.

I mean, I think of that poor damn Truman.

I mean, we still have approval over 50%.

We will even, I mean, of course, we just finished an election, but even now we will.

But that poor Truman went down to 32.

That's right.

At one point.

And he was right.

He was right in what he was doing.

I mean, I frankly kicked the shit out of him, but he was right.

I didn't kick him about that.

That's when I kicked him about his case where he was wrong.

But he was right about Korea, and I praised him for it.

He was only wrong in not bombing north of the Yellow.

Well, that's exactly right.

But how is Kelly in good frame to go up to the U.N.?

He must be tickled to death.

That is really a hell of a thing for him.

I'm not sure he's been walking on the ground.

I think he's still about two feet off.

Well, you know, he's...

Henry, as you know, fought this tooth and nail between you and me.

He just fought it, and we finally said, all right, Henry, what do you want?

Do you want him there, or do you want him in Ziegler's office briefing on foreign policy?

He said, oh, he's getting to New York.

I said, don't tell Scali.

And I said, look, I have confidence.

He says, I have none.

He says, Scali leaks, and he's got the goddamnedest figments.

He thinks that Scali leaked to Timmy.

He even said he thought you leaked to Timmy.

I said, oh, no.

I said, no, you didn't.

Of course, I hope you did.

But in any event, the point is, he has this obsession that Scali is a State Department fellow and leaks against him.

Oh, I know.

Now, Scali does everything because it's going to help me.

That's all.

That's all he does.

The only times that Scali has ever put anything out is when Scali has been great.

But I'll tell you, he'll be a hell of an ambassador to the UN.

He'll cut a swath up there, such as Cabot Lodge, with his stiffness.

And George Bush, who's a very sweet guy, but not a tough guy.

Scali's tough.

Don't you agree?

He's tough as nails.

He's hard.

He will do a hell of a job.

And you have no question about his loyalty to our policies.

He knows about the need for the tough policies, doesn't he?

Well, he's more hawkish than a lot of people around here.

Oh, hell yes.

Well, he knows.

He's been around the world.

Well, back at the point when there was concern about whether we were going to abandon, too, Scali said, this is the only thing I couldn't stand.

He said, I couldn't see us do that.

No, no, he's a...

He's a realist, and he never leaks except when he's told to.

He goes out and does what he's told to.

Well, he's still a town scout.

He's been a damn good soldier.

Oh, I know.

And Henry is, of course, paranoid.

Well, he's paranoid about others, and he's the one that does all the talking himself.

Well, I didn't get to see him today because Chuck Percy was too busy saying Percy.

Was Percy in today?

Sure, to see Henry Kissinger.

And I thought to myself...

I can't believe it.

Well, he's just back from a trip to Asia, so he came in to report to Henry.

Well...

Yeah, this is Henry's problem.

You know, you're building Percy up for the presidency.

For Henry... For God's sake, we have a rule he's not to see Percy.

We have a rule.

Henry is positively compulsive this way, and then when anything is said negative, he just... Of course, I'm worried about that Harris poll, although I've tuned it way down because I know he'll think I inspired that, which I didn't.

Oh, no, no, no.

Let him worry about that one.

But listen, in fairness, let me say, if I give you, if I call about in four or five, if we get any kind of a break on the negotiations, and I don't expect one either way, I'm neither pessimistic or optimistic, but anything comes, I believe that Harris deserves knowing it before he puts that poll out, though.

You understand?

Yeah, it'll be, well, that's right.

When does he have to, when does his day have to go?

Well, he mails the damn thing this Wednesday for use next Thursday, but only the newspaper people have it, and I, of course, get a smuggled copy.

Nobody will have it.

He mails it tomorrow, then?

He mails it tomorrow for use a week from Thursday.

Well, is it on Henry?

Only part, yeah.

Part of it's on Henry.

It's a profile on him.

Part of it's on public approval of your handling of Vietnam.

Well, it'll be all right, all right, because basically it'll shake Henry a little, even if... Well, most of it, 61% of the American people think he's a superbly skilled negotiator.

I got Lou to put all the positive stuff up in the lead so that...

They thought he'd misled them a little.

But he thought the 42 to 39 felt that they had misled... That isn't bad.

No.

Really?

Well, I think he himself realizes that...

But that particular phrase, which I don't think he intended to highlight, but it was... Well, and it was... And actually, he believed it at the time.

Sure.

That's the problem.

That's right.

So it isn't... Don't ever say it again, I tell you.

Well, it got him out on a hell of a limb.

That's a lesson to negotiate.

I've been trying to get back off of it ever since, you know, and thank God that Thursday speech of mine is going to look good in the history books.

Yes, it is.

And I think the other thing, Mr. President, that... Harris doesn't think, though, that this same thing rubs off that much of me.

It'll rub off some, you know, because after all, I picked Kissinger, and he's my man, and I back him totally.

No, he doesn't think it rubs off at all, because he thinks that Kissinger has made a... has assiduously cultivated a separate identity.

And...

So he does not think it wrote so.

He does?

He thinks he's cultivators.

Yeah, he does.

I'll be damned.

He says he's gone to great lengths to, I mean, all this gay living is part of creating the romantic image that everyone wants.

In other words, part from the administration.

Yeah.

Then you've got to pay.

Then you pay the price.

And he's got that in the poll, and the people look askance at it.

I had his social life, but then they, of course, think he's brilliant.

It's a good analysis.

There's nothing unfair in it.

It's just that Henry's so damn sensitive.

I know in that Timish thing, my God, he conducted a full-scale investigation.

It so happened.

Well, the Timish article was not that bad, was it?

No, it was not bad at all.

Was it saying that Henry had... Well, it said that he had misunderstood the problem.

He would have understood it and had to pull him back and straighten him out.

Well...

some truth in that.

And that could be gotten just from reading really what you said and what Kissinger said.

It was nothing.

But he read one insignificant column, whom he does not respect.

Yep.

And on the other hand... Had him in for an hour.

Kraft and these other people, for Christ's sake.

Well, Braden...

Awful.

But on this business of Percy, I can't believe.

Can you find out how much time he spent with him?

Yes, sir.

I can find out.

Call over there at the office and call me back.

Yes, sir.

I'd like to know.

I'll find out right now.

See if Harlem has left, Connors.

I want to report to him.

I have an order out on him.

He's not to see the son of a bitch.

When I called...

I have an absolute rule on this, on Percy.

He's frozen.

When I called just before he was leaving, and they said that he was busy, and then John Scali ran into Percy walking into his office.

Scali was trying to get the kiss.

So I'll call you back.

I'll find out and call you back.

Yes, sir.