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Conversation 035-040

TapeTape 35StartSunday, December 31, 1972 at 7:34 PMEndSunday, December 31, 1972 at 7:44 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Colson, Charles W.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AI Summary

President Nixon and Charles Colson opened their conversation by discussing the Washington Redskins' recent victory and Nixon’s unsuccessful efforts to reach coach George Allen to offer congratulations. The discussion quickly shifted to a professional concern regarding Henry Kissinger, specifically suspecting him of leaking information to New York Times journalist James Reston. Nixon ordered Colson to investigate Kissinger’s communications, including his private telephone records and potential contacts with the press, to confirm the source of the unauthorized disclosures. They agreed on the necessity of monitoring Kissinger more closely to maintain control over national security messaging during delicate Vietnam peace negotiations.

Henry KissingerPress leaksVietnam War negotiationsGeorge AllenNational securitySurveillance
AudioNARA Description

On December 31, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 7:34 pm to 7:44 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 035-040 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 35-40

Date: December 31, 1972
Time: 7:34 pm - 7:44 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Charles W. Colson.

       Washington Redskins-Dallas Cowboys game
           -Colson’s viewing
                 -Baltimore television [TV] station
           -Post-game celebration
                 -Colson’s view
                       -1972 Presidential election
                       -George E. Allen
                 -The President's attempt to reach Allen
                 -Duke Ziebert's restaurant
                       -Edward Bennett Williams
           -Allen
                 -Support for the President
           -Redskins
                 -Larry Brown
                 -Billy Kilmer
                 -Jack Pardee
                 -Charley Taylor
           -Cowboys
                 -Lance Alworth
                 -Bob Hayes
                 -Ron Sellers
                 -Calvin Hill
                       -Compared to Brown
                       -Yale University career
           -Redskins style
                 -Defense
                       -Hitting
                 -The President’s view
                       -Brown fumble
                 -Compared to 1972 election

       Henry A. Kissinger
                                 -42-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           (rev. Oct.-07)

                                                   Conversation No. 35-40 (cont’d)

-James B. (“Scotty”) Reston article, “Nixon and Kissinger”
      -Source investigation
            -Instruction for Colson
                   -John A. Scali
      -Reason for possible leak
            -Reston’s status
                   -Establishment
            -Messages in Vietnam negotiations
                   -William H. Sullivan
                         -State Department
                         -Possible ambassadorship to Philippines
      -Kissinger
            -Source investigation
                   -Record of telephone calls
                         -White House operators
                         -Stephen B. Bull
                               -Signal Corps officer
                         -White House operators
                         -The President’s instructions
                               -Kissinger telephone calls
                               -Private telephone
                                     -White House switchboard
                                     -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI]
                                       involvement
                   -Views on war
-Kissinger’s negotiations with North Vietnam
      -Historical stature of Kissinger
      -“Peace is at hand” statement
            -Effect on negotiations
                   -US bargaining position
-National security issues
      -New York Times
            -The President’s view
            -George P. Shultz
                   -Economic issues
            -Conversations with Kissinger and staff
                   -Post-December 11, 1972
                         -Colson’s recent conversation with Kissinger
                         -Max Frankel
-Reston article
                                                -43-

                     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                           (rev. Oct.-07)

                                                                  Conversation No. 35-40 (cont’d)

                      -Source investigation
                             -Confronting Kissinger
                                   -Effect
                             -Discretion
               -Schedule
               -Scali
               -Herbert G. Klein
               -Ronald L. Ziegler
               -Previous conversation with Colson
                      -Conversation with Kissinger
                             -“Hawk,” “dove”
               -Morale
               -Debating points
                      -Timing
               -Interview with Marvin L. Kalb
               -Reston article
                      -Effect
               -Negotiations in Paris
                      -Settlement agreement
                             -Conclusion
                      -Statements
                             -Timing
                      -Settlement agreement
                             -Conclusion
                                   -Statement by the President
                                         -Colson’s recent conversation with Kissinger

       Allen
               -Ziebert’s
                     -White House operator
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.
Yes, sir.
What did you think of that Redskin game?
That was quite a game, wasn't it?
Did you get to see it?
Yes, sir.
We got Baltimore here.
Right.
Pretty well, so it was...
I loved the celebration afterwards because, I don't know, it reminded me a little bit of our election.
Yeah.
George Allen was...
He was really...
He really looked great on TV.
Yeah, I've been trying to reach him since, but I've been unable to get him on the phone.
Well, I imagine he doesn't... Our operators, of course, they're... You know, they don't have many on right now, and I said, well...
They couldn't find him in his usual numbers.
They wanted to try the police department and so forth, because there's a celebration someplace.
I mean, I think you'd be easy to find.
I'll talk to the operators.
He normally goes to Duke Zebritz?
Duke Zebritz, yes, sir.
Why don't you call Duke Zebritz?
That's where it is.
I didn't tell them, you know, because they're so good to start calling the restaurants, but that's where it is.
It's Seabirds.
Duke Seabirds is where he normally goes.
That's Edward Bennett Williams.
That'll be his party.
That's the only sad part about it.
Yeah, but George Allen has been a damn good supporter of ours.
But, you know, he's just an inspiring fellow.
He's put together.
He's taken a very ordinary, and they really are ordinary, except for about three guys.
Brown is better than ordinary.
And I must say Kilmer was today.
And Pardee on the defense was very good, and Taylor, of course, was always good.
But that's about all.
Otherwise, Dallas had the superior minimum.
My God, they have all work.
They have Hayes.
They have Sellers.
All three of them are about the same as Taylor.
That's right.
And, of course, Calvin Hill, he's bigger than Brown.
That's the point.
Oh, I remember him when he was playing in college for Yale.
He was a hell of an athlete.
I saw him a few times.
Well, anyway, that's...
But they hit harder.
They hit harder.
I think they did, too.
The Ritskins were just out for blood.
They went out there and they hit hard.
But they played.
except for the Brown fumble, probably a perfect football game.
Yeah, just as close to perfect as it can be.
It reminded me, it really reminded me of the election, because every time the other side would get up, bang, somebody hit them hard.
And it was just perfectly executed, and there weren't many dropped balls or fumbles or mistakes.
They played great.
Have you given any more thought to the Kissinger problem?
Yes, I have, Mr. President.
I think it's a...
It's one we've really got to deal with very quickly before it gets on here, but... Well, I have.
I think the...
I don't think there's any question where that damned article came from.
The more I've read it...
It came from him, don't you?
No, it had to.
Can you trace that?
It would be very important to know that.
Well, you know what?
The more I've thought about it, when he says to you that... Matter of honor.
Which, of course, it is with him.
I understand that, but he...
He can say that with a perfect straight face and never, you know, never wince.
I mean, a lot of people can't do that.
Henry's able to do that, and I'm not giving it a second thought.
I'm sure it did.
I'm going to try to trace it, and I'm going to have Skelly do a little checking.
I think you can probably find out, because Reston was kind of a guy that will brag a little.
I think that's right.
He got it.
I'm sure he got it directly from Kester.
But if he did, we've got to know.
That's one thing we've got to know.
Well, who else would be able to say that there had been messages back and forth in recent days?
That's my point.
Well, who else?
Let's see.
Who the hell knows?
Well, it had to be somebody.
It could have been this fellow at the State Department.
But he wouldn't put it out because he's scared to death because we're going to make him ambassador to the Philippines.
He's not going to say anything.
No, none of those guys are.
No, they know better than that.
They don't gain by this.
Yeah.
If they gain by it.
And they wouldn't play it that way because they know this is not true.
That's right.
Yeah.
No, you wouldn't get .
But why would Kissinger do it, in your opinion?
I think perfectly innocently.
I think if Reston called— He played into Reston's hands, don't you think?
Reston is known as the dean of the establishment journalists, and he calls Henry, and Henry takes the call.
In the course of conversation, he leads them into a line of thought.
In the way of your just checking on the thing, I mean, you could sort of innocently stumble on it, couldn't you?
Can't we really check to see your check the White House operator's idea?
Well, Steve Bull is working through a colonel, through an officer in the Signal Corps who is out there and can check those calls.
Our gals here don't keep any records.
Well, they're out there, somebody who keeps Henry's records.
God damn it, we've got to know the record of every call.
From now on, I want a record of every one of his calls.
Let's have that.
That can be done through signal.
The other thing, of course, is that he had a private phone installed out there.
Well, why don't we just get the... We'll check the billings, of course.
Let's get the hell with the billings.
Let's get the Bureau in it, by God.
Let's find out.
Let's get right on his private phone and who called him on that.
Why don't we do it?
If I... On this, I really think we've got to go to the heart of it.
Well, I do, too.
I think it probably is the kind of thing, however, Mr. President, that even if it's...
True.
Even if we prove it, we can't confront Henry with it because... No, but it's good to know it, isn't it?
Yeah, of course I...
This has happened so damn many times with Henry, you know, where he will absolutely straight-faced tell you he's not doing something, and then he goes in and does it.
But I'm not, I don't have any doubt at all where that came from.
I can hear him pontificating, as he does, about, well, do you think I like this war?
I don't like this war.
This is a great tragedy.
But the idea of the saying, basically, he's
working for peace and somebody's holding him back.
That's the part that I can understand.
I can.
If you put yourself in Henry Kissinger's shoes, he is going to spend a good part of the remainder of his life justifying why peace was at hand, but then it wasn't later at hand.
And bear in mind, he always has to have an enemy.
He always has to blame someone.
He can't blame himself.
So now what happens?
You have to have
an alibi.
You've got to have a reason why, when he went before the American people and thought he was winning the election for us and was doing just the reverse, and said, peace is at hand, and then it isn't.
We've always known that that...
I've always thought that was an Achilles' heel with the negotiating.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, murderous, because...
The Orientals are damn smart, and they know that he stuck his neck out and said that... And then he had to give anything in order to prove it.
That's precisely the case.
The moment he said it was at hand, then he had no bargaining position.
And you have a man doing that with an enormous ego, and worried about his place in history.
So you think that... That could be, that could be.
Well, it's nothing personal about the dam, but the whole thing is that we've been around this track with him so often...
about the Times.
Now, we've just got to cut the New York Times off from any communication on the national security front.
Let Schultz talk to them about economic interests, but not national security.
Don't you agree?
Well, you know, he said to me today, just looking at my notes here, he said, no one, not I nor anyone on my staff, has talked to anyone from the New York Times since December 11th.
Well, I just know that is true.
He talks to Frankl all the time.
I was in your office one day when he said, I'm going to plant this with Frankl or try this with Frankl.
So it's just, you know, it's just
Patently untrue.
The problem is with Henry that you never can confront him with it because if he ever really has to admit... Yeah, then it destroys him.
Oh, Christ, he'll just go to pieces.
I guess, but it's still good to know.
I don't know.
Well, I think it is.
Well, I'd do it in the most discreet way possible, but after all, you've got the job.
You work it out.
In the meantime, I think you really can bring him to heel when he comes back on the 2nd.
I'd get him in there with Scully and Klein and Ziegler, and I'd lay it out.
Well, in that last phone conversation I had with him, he just, he, of course, he was in one of those, he was in that mood that he's in when he's caught, as a matter of fact, which told me a lot.
And you trapped him.
You really nailed him with that business about to, you know, I'd be the dove and you'd be the hawk, Henry.
Yeah.
That's kind of a concern.
But, but, uh,
Until we get this damn thing wrapped up.
I know.
We don't want to do anything to hurt his morale.
But on the other hand, we've got to really restrain him from, you know, trying to make his debating points now.
Let him make them later.
That's right.
Well, the value of the exercise today and yesterday, Mr. President, is that he knows that, I mean, number one, he knows he's caught on the kelp.
No question about that.
I think he does.
Oh, sure.
He has to know that because he knows he told you one thing and me something else, and he has to realize that that catches up with him.
And he also knows that this article caused a hell of a storm back here, and that has value to it because it'll cause him to be cautious.
This week, before he goes back to Paris, I think it's damn important.
Right.
And after he goes back, if we get it wrapped up in him, what the hell, let him.
It won't matter at that point.
It really won't, because...
It won't matter, but on the other hand, we don't want him to do it too soon again, you know.
He's always...
He'll shoot too soon.
We mustn't have him do it again.
I've got to do the shooting, you know.
He wants to get out here and... Well, he said to me in the course of this today, he said, if I get...
I think today or yesterday, he said, if we get this wrapped up in Paris, he said, then I think the president should address the nation.
I thought, my God.
Who would, Henry?
It felt like saying...
I really want to go out and announce that to you.
Isn't that what I want the president to do?
Well, he means that.
Oh, sure.
Okay.
Well, anyway, it's worth checking.
Get a hold of the zebras.
I'll bet that's where this whole thing is.
I'm sure that it is.
I'll help the operator out.
Okay.
I'll get them for you, sir.
Okay.
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