Conversation 035-069

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Hello.

Mr. Coulson, sir.

Hello.

Yes, sir, Mr. President.

Well, I just had a long talk with Henry, and his dobber's a little down, so tomorrow I told him that you and Holloman were the two members of the White House staff that stood by him.

He said, yeah, you were really great, and Holloman was great, and so I would sort of cheer him up tomorrow and lay off of the past and say, no, just be strong and all that sort of thing.

Was his dobber down because of the...

articles or was he just yeah the articles right you know what i mean basically articles you and i paid damn little attention to either he didn't mention him but i mean they're not that you know he doesn't he only pays attention to those that are there are rough but you know although he did mention that well crosby noise had a good one and so did somebody else's uh stuart also in fact they've been quite a few good ones yeah i think really the tip wilson i think really the

thrust to them over the last several days as far as you're concerned have been terrific the the kissinger split or the gap probably is what really gets gets to him but right well anyway i uh i gave him a my usual as i said it's really something that i seem to have the responsibility of keeping our own people on there i know i was thinking about an incredible thing the way you've the amount of work you've had to put in just to

to keep that fellow's morale up or anywhere near normal level.

He sees it all in such personal terms now, you know.

That's what it is, Chuck.

He's just so personally involved.

It's an awful position to be in when you're negotiating and when you've got stakes as high as the stakes that Henry is playing with.

Well, he'll be all right in Paris, I'm sure.

He'll.

We went over the whole game plan and inch by inch and word by word.

We've got it all worked out.

Well, Bob and I can take some time.

Tell Ziegler in the morning that we met for what time is it now?

It's now quarter of 10.

So you started at 7.30.

That's two hours and 15 minutes.

Yeah.

I'll just say two hours.

Two hours.

That's a good idea that he met with you as soon as he came back.

Well, Bob and I can sit with him, and is the game here to build him up now?

I mean, just keep him up so he feels good.

Yeah, so that he looks confident and not down on the mouth and not worrying about himself.

You know what I mean?

We've got to just play this and tough it right through.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, I suppose the congressional stuff throws him, too.

Yeah, yeah.

He would be especially sensitive to them.

Although in a sense, he says that the House resolution really helps us a bit because he says the North Vietnamese, the last thing they want is for us to withdraw for prisoners, he said, because he says first they'll never agree to it.

Beyond that, they may eventually, but they want a foothold in South Vietnam, you see, if we get out.

And they can't get the foothold.

That's right.

Unless, of course, unless the Congress cuts off the water of the South Vietnamese at the same time.

God, I just can't...

I just don't believe that they would... Don't believe they would go that far, Mr. President.

I just... Well, anyway, fine.

Unless we're completely misreading them of the country, nobody would...

I mean, that would be just such a grossly irresponsible thing for the Congress.

Well, I'll fight him to the end on that.

Oh, God.

Well, I think you could go to the country on that one, and when it...

by 61%, or better.

I think that would be...

I don't think the Tigers would do that.

Right.

Well, we'll get with Henry tomorrow and keep his dabber up through the week, and he leaves on Friday or Saturday?

Sunday.

Sunday morning.

Well, we'll... We'll just make it a project to keep him...

In the meantime, I'll... We're going to meet.

I've set it up so that he, Rogers, Laird,

Moore and I and Helms will meet on Thursday while the others are down at that funeral and our memorial service boxes thing.

So we won't announce, we're not going to sing about it until afterwards.

We're not going to make a big deal, but we're just going to have a meeting so that they're all lined up, but it's just a question of having them show that everybody knows we're all together.

Show the solidarity, I think that's important.

That's right.

Is he off of the kick now that you have to say something this week?

Henry?

Oh, yes.

About him?

Yeah.

No.

Yes, he's off of that because basically I didn't mention it.

My feeling is that just the fact we met for two hours and that we meet again on Thursday will show that.

Oh, yeah.

And I think that's right.

And I think that point was a whole lot less important to the overall game plan than it was to Henry personally.

I think he was wondering.

I've got to figure out something to say to that bipartisan group very, very briefly.

I just think I'll just talk it through with them and say I'm

This is at the end.

I'll say, no, I know your interest in Vietnam.

Mine is just as great.

We're having these very sensitive negotiations.

I cannot say anything now.

It would jeopardize them.

I will report to the Congress fully as the negotiations proceed.

And when they're at a point when we can do so.

When it will be helpful to the cause of an honorable peace.

That's all you need to say.

In fact, I think that's probably a damn good thing to say.

All right.

Well, I'll write a message to get with Hague as soon as he's in tomorrow so that I can be sure he knows what the hell's going on.

In the meantime, I will follow up on our other little game plans.

I noticed, just looking, a quick look at the spark pages, there's really an enormous amount on this Clemente.

I'm glad we got out a good little statement on that.

Should have been out the day before, but that's all right.

Coming the second day, it may get a little better play.

Yeah, I'm not sure that was a good idea.

And Dick Moore was working when I left tonight about 7.30.

Good.

No, Galbraith was on his way to Puerto Rico.

They were going to try to get him when he got in tonight.

He was going down for General Clemente and get him and Dale to...

this group together very quickly.

Somoza was on his way to Nicaragua, but we will be able to get that story out tomorrow, probably, in two cycles of your contribution in forming a group.

I'm awfully glad you're doing it, Clemente.

You know, you've got another very good bounce tonight on the Allen story.

Of course, I suppose that's Washington a little bit, but that certainly has played for two days.

Yesterday morning at 10 o'clock through the

evening papers tonight.

Damn good.

Yeah.

Well, that's a good positive thing to be involved in at these times with the world problems and the Congress kicking up its heels and so forth.

Well, the market showed a good move.

I was going to mention that, that at least the market is up to 1031 again.

Yes, sir.

Well, of course, that's reacting, I suppose, to the peace.

They're a bunch of lowly, liberate people.

But nevertheless, it's just as well that

That also will affect these stupid people in the Congress a bit, you know.

A lot of them follow the market.

Geez, it has to.

You know, all the signs about the bullish economy, which are extraordinary, the news magazines, all the year-end economic wrap-ups.

And the market going up, they'll think, well, maybe the country's got more confidence in the president than they have, you know.

I'm just not sure that the Democrats, it's just as well.

In a way, we may find ourselves positioned against this Congress, and by God, if it is, we'll fight the bastards.

Why not?

You need an enemy.

As Conley says, maybe let's have that as an enemy.

What do you think?

I'm not sure you could find a better one than the Congress.

They're going to bring down in their heads the wrath of the people if they start going on big spending, more government programs, or obstructing the president when the president's trying to conduct it.

at the responsible end of this war.

I just think that's... We've just got to pick our time at the right time.

We'll give them enough rope to hang themselves.

And we'll just keep a lot of motion.

I mean, seeing Mansfield was a good idea, and I'll see Albert in the morning.

And, you know, it all seeps out that we're working with them.

You're doing a good amount this week with the Congress.

Bipartisan leaders and then seeing the new people and

Boy, I'm really convinced we're doing the right thing on that memorial service so-called, too.

So am I.

Boy, that one is, I'm glad Scully felt that way because his reaction was really good.

He just, he was hard, hard on it, wasn't he?

Before he even listened to any of the frozen guns, he just looked and said, positively not.

It's, you know, overdoing it.

You don't need to.

I've been there.

That's the point.

I've been to the funeral.

And I wouldn't give Sarah that opportunity.

That's right.

So Ziegler will be, I went through it all with Jerry tonight, Ziegler will be in the morning to take a question.

I'll talk to him in the morning too.

And he just handles it in a low-key way.

No, I think it's absolutely the right decision.

And either President Johnson or President Nixon, they've already paid their respects at the private thing.

This is a ceremony for those that were unable to go to independence.

Or to be with the family at a small private service.

No, I think it's absolutely the right position, Mr. President.

And I think you're...

We'll get a few little knocks from those that would knock anyway, but that's all right, too.

Well, I think you'd get a hell of a lot worse the other way, especially this week when I think it serves our interest to keep the focus off Vietnam.

Yeah.

Really, there are a lot of other things going on this week.

You are consulting with the Congress.

You're having them in, and that's good.

You been in touch with Sendlinger lately?

No, sir.

My assistant, Dick Harrod, talked to him, I guess, yesterday.

He's never anything new.

Well, of course, they don't do much over the weekend.

He really found it very difficult.

Of course, that's the most revealing thing of all.

Sendlinger said it's really a waste of his money to keep his phone banks in operation over the Christmas and New Year period because people just aren't interested in what's, well, they're interested, but they're not following it.

And his awareness questions, you know, read about, talked about, heard about, drop way the hell down on every issue except sports.

People are sports conscious.

But he finds that his economic stuff is not reliable.

They've just spent all their money for Christmas.

The political stuff they're not following.

It was a big Christmas, wasn't it?

Yeah, a huge Christmas in terms of retail sales.

I guess it will settle all the records.

You think so?

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

and they of course going to give the year a hell of an ending because the gnt was moving up anyway very rapidly and they had revised up the fourth quarter and i think when the fourth quarter comes out if it reflects the new unemployment figures will be out this week won't they yes sir friday well matter of fact i'll have them tomorrow i can't see how they're going to do anything but be where they are down a little well we don't get them though they might be they might be the last month we do and the january can be a little bit

Sometimes a little bit rough.

Now, we may get a good bounce this week.

They probably won't be up.

It doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference, really.

Not right now.

They move up a little.

5.2, it's getting down.

So it goes to 5.4 or it goes to 5.1.

What the hell's the difference?

Nobody's paying a hell of a lot of attention to it.

They're really not.

There isn't anybody unemployed.

That's why.

You can't find people looking for jabs.

I'd like to have, just for the, it'd be good if we could have a good bounce.

which for that leaders meeting but uh there was a little positive but if it isn't we just pay no attention to it well we might get it uh i've forgotten now because i don't have the figures with me i don't i've forgotten how that seasonal adjustment works in the last month but it balances it even up for the year and i know they screwed us all year long so we we should uh we should get a little bounce out of that a little break out of it maybe for the end of the year

Well, my God, all the economic stuff, Mr. President.

And that, incidentally, has a hell of a lot more effect on people now than maybe almost anything else.

I'm not sure that the war is all that big.

I think it's awful big in the minds of the Mansfields and the congressional people and the Doves and people that are trying to embarrass us and all that sort of thing.

the columnists, etc.

But, you know, the average person may not give that much of a damn about it, particularly since they're back talking in Paris.

I think, well, I think, well, sure.

No, I think after the announcement this weekend, there isn't, well, I'll find out from Semlinger whether he's getting any reaction, but I would be surprised if he's getting anything.

He'll get a very, very minimum response to this.

And with the economy going good and New Year off to a

I just don't...

I think we're in a very good position.

I think the... As Timmons told me tonight, that Fulbright today had said there'd be no hearings or no consideration of any end-of-war legislation until after the inaugural.

I think what he's really reflecting... That's very interesting.

Yeah.

I think he's reflecting an apprehension that they just don't want to get too far out on the limb.

Yeah.

Well...

Basically, you know, that's the smarter thing for them to do.

If we fall on our ass, then they can kick the living bejesus out of us.

But if they get out on a limb and then we happen to pull it off, we kick the hell out of them.

We've done that to them a few times.

They may say this time we'll kick them anyway because that's one thing about that.

about the House having that caucus acting this way.

Of course, you know, as I said, on the plus side of that, we've had those kinds of votes before, but getting 75 is what I...

I don't look at the upper number.

I look at the bottom number.

75 people stuck with us.

What is it, 246?

three-year... Well, 75, and there's 190 Republicans, so figure we lose 20.

So you get 170 plus 75, or suppose we lose 30.

That's right.

I think we can get 160 Republicans to stick with us in this damn thing, don't you?

Yes, I would think, yeah, because the Republican switches or the...

Those changes have helped us, where the Democratic changes have weakened us in a few places.

But the Republicans, most of them, Jesus, were running with us against McGovern, and I would think they would have helped us.

192 Republicans.

I think you'll find that damn few Mavericks in that bunch.

Just tell me one thing you might say to Ford.

I don't know whether there are people caucused today, too.

The caucus, I think it's tomorrow, Mr. President.

Yeah, it's tomorrow.

Maybe they can get a resolution of confidence in the president or some damn thing.

Why not be a little bit partisan?

What do you think?

I think it'd be great if he could be sure of his head count.

Well, check it out.

Were you with Timmons and the boys?

I'll check that tonight, but that'd be a damn good thing to do if he could do it.

Right.

Balance them off.

Right.

As a matter of fact, that's a hell of a good way to... Oh, sure, a hell of a good way.

Then you add up the 75 plus whatever he gets tomorrow.

Right.

The majority of the House, that'd be a damn good signal, wouldn't it?

You see, Dave, the point is that they just knocked down this report stuff until after, nobody, I should not say until after the negotiations.

That's the whole point of this.

We will.

We're consulting with them.

Okay.

Well, I'll follow that tonight, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. President.