Conversation 035-078

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I am, Mr. Carlson, now.

I know.

Hello?

Ready, sir?

Hello?

Yes, sir, Mr. President.

Well, aren't your day to go today?

Well, I thought it was a good day, except God, hitting those jackasses in the Congress back in Washington makes a difference, doesn't it?

Oh, well, it doesn't bother you, does it?

No, it's just that it's really amazing.

I talked to our legislative people this afternoon, and they said that we were trying to get some speeches and some statements out.

And even Carl August and Cook, who are pretty upbeat guys, they said, God, it is just so painful to go up there and have to listen to these guys whine around, and they want briefings, and they want fact sheets.

Yeah.

They're just... Don't let them get discouraged.

Oh, no, no.

I gave them a good pep talk, and said every time you see one of those guys, remind them about the 61%.

Sure.

They're with us.

Oh, no, they're not there.

They're an annoyance, you know, it's a damn shame.

Well, as a matter of fact, though, the fact that the Senate at least, you know, the Republicans in the Senate unanimously adopted that resolution, that wasn't bad.

Yeah, the House, we couldn't get the damn thing brought up.

That's where Jerry Ford...

He just couldn't, he doesn't... Well, you know, he plays by the rules.

I know.

Well, McCloskey's got one he wants brought up, and if I bring up one, McCloskey's got to bring up one.

He's the leader.

That's right, he's the leader.

I love Jerry, and I've known him for years, and...

Gee, he just lacks that little bit.

As a matter of fact, I'm just concerned that when they have the meeting on Wilson on Saturday that Jerry will cave in and let Wilson stay on.

I worry about the same thing, Mr. President.

You know, that's Jerry's way.

He doesn't really dig his heels in and fight when he should.

Yeah.

It's too bad because he... At dinner with Al the night he...

gave me his, he said he tried to talk with you.

Yeah, well, we had a brief talk.

He got back a little bit late.

He thinks, Henry called him down in Puerto Rico on Sunday, did he tell you that?

Yeah.

He said that Henry was very upset over this.

I think Al... Al sensed that Henry...

Probably knew what had happened, though.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, Al knows.

Don't you think so?

Oh, yes.

I don't know whether Al will ever.

I think Al is very cautious in talking to you, and he should be.

Yeah, sure.

He's an Army officer, but he said to me, we both agreed, Henry, God, he means well, but he does get taken in by these people.

Yeah.

And he goes on a tirade when he's trying to find the source, and all the time he was the source.

Probably doesn't even, not even sometimes willing to accept.

There wasn't any other source.

Oh, hell, there couldn't be on that one.

That's right.

There just couldn't be.

And there aren't that many people that talk to Reston, frankly, around the White House.

That's right.

There aren't many people Reston will talk to, to put it that way.

Well, that's quite true, too.

He only talked to the big shots.

He would not deign to talk to lesser lights than Kissinger or others.

So, yeah, you know where it comes from.

He had something in his column today that I'm not...

President Nixon privately confides that he wants the year 2000 to be the year in which he presides over the reunification of the country.

Well, somebody's saying that to him.

That's a fine thing to say, but somebody has said that.

You know damn well he's got somebody to be talking to.

But what the hell, Reston is a lot less influential, you know, than he used to be.

Yeah.

Oh, God, yes.

He's considered to be, basically, has been by a hell of a lot of people.

Well, I think he is.

I really do.

I mean, I think his stuff basically is stale when you read it.

Pretty stale.

He has the last, his last hurrah was the Joe and Lion interview.

Yeah.

And he hasn't really since then developed much.

Right.

Our little meteor operations are moving right along handsomely, Mr. President.

Are they?

Good.

Yeah.

That's good.

I shouldn't tell you this until it gets settled, but it's beginning now to look like CBS may offer a client job.

I think we've shaken them enough.

Their Washington Republican lawyer, Lankler, told me that they were now seriously considering bringing Herb in.

Washington Post is screaming like hell.

Edward Bennett Williams called and asked if he could see me.

So I know what that is, but

Well, I'd see him.

Well, I've been toying with the idea.

Sure, see him.

And there's no, you can handle him.

Oh, sure.

Just you see him and say, what the hell do you want?

And then just cold turkey, he's a cold turkey guy.

Oh, he's, yeah, he's a very cold turkey fellow.

Well, he may have something else in mind, but he, yes, of course, they had those two license challenges filed the same day.

Yeah.

And it's made a hell of a story.

Good.

Ran all over the country, and their station managers are saying, but we've done such a good job.

Yeah.

In Jacksonville, you see they hadn't been challenged in 20 years.

Right.

Because they had a big fight three years ago.

But both challenges are in, and got a hell of a ride today.

And in addition to that, Neil Freeman, the King Features fellow, tells me that the Post is in trouble on their new syndicate now.

Yeah.

a lot of their you know they have 300 newspapers under yeah contract and they're in trouble on their syndicate because the way we've been feeding the star yeah a lot of the papers out in the country that have been subscribing to the washington post he told me the number had canceled out but the organic papers in maine were reconsidering whether they would keep the post service because

star was getting that's right the star runs it it's copyrighted and it moves on the wires that night and they get it it's morning news cycle really ahead of the post sure you know where i really think we've we're onto something i really think this this several pronged

yeah at some point it's really going to cause them to crack i think well you should have your talk with williams i mean that the main mainly for the purpose of listening not for the purpose of telling him anything oh hell i don't know anything about these license challenges no and also and you don't know anything about the poster to see what what he has in mind well it's interesting how they've all been coming around you know one by one

They're sure as hell getting the message out there.

I mean, Paley coming down and Lloyd Cutler talking to one of the partners in the firm that I'm going with, that I'm taking over.

Bennett Williams now wanting to see me.

That's all right.

That's fine.

It's all right for me.

Just happened to come to you.

Sticking it right into it.

And, of course, Edith Efron has her new book out now against CBS, which is... What is it about?

She's written a book which is a sequel to...

What's the theme?

What's it come up with?

Well, her whole theme is how CBS tried to discredit and kill her previous book.

This book is about the vicious way in which CBS went on a major campaign to discredit her.

That's really a very interesting book.

And she really torpedoes them in some of the stuff that they've come out with.

Then, of course, you'll have her next edition, which will be published in April, will be her analysis of the 68 campaign.

72, yeah.

I'm sorry, 72 campaign.

Right.

And so she's continuing to slug away at them.

Her book's getting a little pressed now, and she'll get some reviews.

So it all adds up.

Operation Saxby continues.

Oh, what's on that?

Well, the Teamsters in Ohio who supported Saxby before have advised him that they now cannot support him.

And we're just going through the labor circles out there that he will lose any support he had from organized labor.

Has he reacted yet?

Well, I'm told.

I got a report today that he was squirming and upset and didn't know what to do, and the

papers now Cincinnati and Columbus have both dumped all over him.

Tonight, big headline, Clancy joins Devine in attacking Saxby.

I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for somebody like that to start moaning around up in the Senate a little bit that he's

That's right.

But the administration has cracked him back because that may discourage some of those.

It's not just the administration.

It's his own colleagues, basically.

Well, that's right.

But, I mean, in terms of, you know, he's getting it from labor unions and people out there and newspapers.

We aren't taking his phone calls.

That's right.

That's bound to have a little impact on him.

All right.

One thing that's interesting, the market certainly bounds up, doesn't it?

I should say so.

I didn't see how it closed today.

It was 12.

Was it up 12?

Yeah.

It was up 21 million.

It was up 10 the last time I looked.

It was up 12 at 21 million at the end.

Jesus, that's another long day, isn't it?

Up to 1040, so that's not bad.

Well, you know, there's a...

Well, that damn economic news is so bullish.

Apart from the Vietnam business, which, of course, affects them, but the economic news is so bullish, these bastards had better get in.

That's right.

It's a hell of a time to be buying.

I mean, there is a, of course, there's a tremendous boom.

You know, trying to figure out today, I saw old Paul Martin, who I hadn't seen him in a year, you know, the U.S. news fellow.

Yes, yes.

Great.

I know.

Great guy.

He really is.

The reason I saw him, he's going in for an operation on cataracts next week.

Oh, boy.

Too bad.

So I saw him, and he said to me, he said, I can't understand, he said, these jackasses up on the Hill, he said, they come to town, they moan and they whine, and he said, here's the president with 61% of the American people, and massive support, and he said, even the goddamn Republicans, and he said, he was just

He said, they're out of tune with the country.

He said, you go around the country and you talk to the ordinary folks.

I think that was the trouble with the Republicans in the campaign, really.

Yeah, I do, too.

An awful lot of them, Chuck.

They just didn't grab on soon enough and hard enough.

Well, I really think they're misreading the great silent majority.

I think Hugh Scott's house was picketed Christmas night by his kids.

Well, you know, that affects Hugh Scott.

Oh, God, yes.

And that's 20 kids organized with signs.

Well...

Hundreds of thousands who are sitting out there damned happy, the economy's in good shape, getting leadership in the country that what Smith Hempstone had in his brilliant column today.

What did he say?

Well, it was an interesting column.

It talked about all the things that happened this year.

This was his year-end column, and I think he was answering Broder, because he made it clear you're the man of the year.

He said, but if as the year ended, men found themselves vaguely discontented with their lot and anxious about their future, there was a feeling abroad in the land that America had pulled back from the brink of divisive discord, that an era of confrontation was drawing to a close that men could breathe a little.

Richard Nixon, who in 1969 became president of a bitterly divided nation, gripped in the vice of Cold War chivalrous, had reason at the year's end to look back on his first four years with considerable satisfaction and toward his next four with anticipation.

And he goes through saying,

1970 with the headline, 1972, go on to Richard Nixon.

Of course, Smith writes it preeminently.

But that's earlier.

But if anything, 1972 was preeminently Richard Nixon's year, year of his historic journey to Peking, and goes on through the things that happened during the year.

But those items, the Peking, Moscow, et cetera, so override, and the election override these other nitpicking things that these guys don't realize that, but...

I tell you, I think we pay too much attention to the Congress.

Let's not worry that much about that.

Oh, hell.

We've got to fight the battle.

We'll fight it, but on the other hand, we have to realize that they'll squeal, and it's a big Washington story, and it isn't all that damned important.

No, and people, you know, the public attitude towards the Congress is a goddamn poor.

That's right.

If I were in the Congress, I'd try to figure out how I could

how they can get along with the president.

I think they lose ground when they act up like this.

I thought Ziegler put him down just right today.

Just the right time.

And he did it well.

He was on the...

I just caught a glimpse of the network news tonight, but Ron was up.

That's right.

Well, he's tough and strong.

It's good to have him back.

Sure is.

I went through a number of things with him this morning.

He is tough.

And he understands this.

He was very good.

He...

hit the right note, right tone, just to dash them back a bit.

And they'll be quiet now the rest of the week.

I guess they've now organized and passed their resolutions and so forth, and now they go to funeral tomorrow and to Truman's thing Friday, and that kills the week for them.

We have to meet with them, of course, Friday morning.

I have to meet with them.

Well, at the beginning, I think a little bit of that is... Then I'm going to lay on from there on.

I'm not going to

go to them.

They have to come to us a bit.

Well, I think, you know, we stop and think about it, Mr. President.

We really have developed a pretty potent operation when you think about the way we put the squeeze on Saxby.

I mean, there he's getting the Teamsters who supported him.

All of a sudden, they're pulling the cork and saying we won't have anything to do with it.

All right.

Jack, this way.

A couple of newspapers, big ones in the state, whacking them.

Good.

And a couple of congressmen belling them.

I mean, that's... That's right.

This is the only way I think these people are going to... That's right.

You've got to bell them.

That's right.

Only thing they'll understand.

Christ, otherwise they... Yeah, you don't...

They don't understand briefing them and holding their hands.

They just become more arrogant.

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

But we'll... Well, anyway... Our great friend Teddy Gleason, I don't know whether you noticed in the press today, announced in New York

not only did he support your policy 100% in Southeast Asia, but that he would refuse to load or unload any Australian or Italian ships.

Oh, the Italians, because they pissed on us, huh?

Yeah, and if they won't, if they don't like our foreign policy, that's too bad.

Yeah, good for him.

Oh, gee, just really, he just, of course, we can't, I can't even...

that's right you know that's right but that's all right you have to have teddy say that but but it had a hell of an impact you know got a big news player and i think people kind of like that you know they say that sure those countries are going to jump on us oh sure you'll have the uh the post the times will bitch about the fact that the labor union should make foreign policy but

On the other hand, they never bitch about it when they say Scotty Reston shouldn't make foreign policies.

So what the hell?

Well, the kids in the street are Ramsey Clark, for Christ's sakes.

Yeah.

Wanting to build a hospital for the North Vietnamese because we bombed one out.

Yeah.

I got our veteran.

Well, I'm not sure it was bombed out.

No, I'm not either.

Slightly down, but.

But he didn't worry about the one in Hue that they took out with their rockets.

That's right.

Try to orphanage, right.

The FW is going to do a little fundraising for that one.

Are they?

Yeah.

Good.

Talk to them today.

That's the way to do it.

I'll let Ramsey Clark get on network television talking about bleeding hearts for the North Vietnamese.

Leave a little for the South.

Exactly.

Right.

So we'll keep banging back at them.

We got the Clementi thing off the ground.

I guess they were in the sea.

Yep, I had a meeting with them, yeah.

came off, they were very nice.

I don't know how Dick handled it, whether he got it out or not, but he tried to.

Oh, yeah.

They were getting out the fact that you had made the first contribution, and then Ziegler would just be in a position to no comment.

But Dick cut that off quite rapidly.

We'll get a little play out of that, I think.

Well, it should be a fairly big play if it were handled right, but I don't know whether that's one thing we're not very good at, because we don't see the

The emotional pull of that, that's the one thing.

What the hell?

Yeah, your statement, though, Mr. President, yesterday was all over the radio.

The newspapers did not give it enough of a ride.

No, they give it very little.

Hardly any.

ABC used it last night on TV, which was good.

The other two did not, typical.

But one thing this group can do is to run some ads now and use your statement as the centerpiece of the ad.

Yeah, we'll keep at it.

No, no, that's one move.

That's a good kind of a thing for Moore to do.

He has the right sensitivities to that.

Yeah.

Well, anyway, don't worry about the Congress.

I just really believe that we've been through this with them over and over again, and we find when we go to the country, it doesn't matter a hell of a lot.

It never matters, Mr. President.

The only...

The only point I make is that it's just pretty damn discouraging.

You think that the Republicans don't read the election returns.

Well, Percy made that motion today.

Yes, he did.

For whatever Norris Cotton didn't know what the motion was about.

Jesus, what a guy to have in as chairman of the conference.

Think back on the men that have held that job.

I know, I know.

That's the way it works.

He's there for a couple years, I guess.

God, I hope Ford stands up Saturday, though.

If he lets Wilson take this job, I mean... Well, I think I'll better talk to Jerry myself.

My God, yes, this is terribly important.

With the new men coming into the Senate, with the new men in the National Committee, Ford's got to stand up on this thing.

And this idea of Wilson staying in for two, three, two months is going to mean a year.

You know that.

Wilson will never get out if he stays two months.

No, that's the trouble.

Once you do something like that, the...

And there's no reason for him to stay two months.

Oh, yes.

That's exactly the kind of thing we went through with Bob Dole.

That's right.

These fellows have made that their private little feast.

I mean, you know, they have their patron, the staff, and they have their, I don't know whether he gets a car, but he gets expenses.

Well, he's, you know, he says, well, he doesn't want to go out because it looks as if he failed and so forth.

Well, that isn't what it is.

It's just a question of time for change.

Well, he picked up 13 Congress.

So he's happy and he should stop when he's on top.

But I'll talk to Jerry and...

I really feel Jerry ought to bite this bullet now because there's just a hell of a lot of sentiment on it.

That's all.

Oh, God, I think Wilson's a disaster.

Just awful.

We've got to start now picking up the candidates.

We can't wait two months.

We've got to go right now.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I think I can buck Jerry up on that.

Or try to do it, will you?

Yes, sir, I'll do it.

Well, God, yes, that's a hell of a priority on that one.

Good.

Okay, Chuck.

Bye.

Yes, sir.