Conversation 037-017

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Hi, Mr. President.

Your remarks last night were absolutely fantastic.

Well, I think some of these, you know, when people do jobs, this is even true of some members of the cabinet, you know, you do your daily jobs and you kind of, you work on such a small canvas that now and then it's nice for the people to sit back and see the big canvas.

You know, when they prepare, you know,

remarks from you and so forth, they want me to discuss how revenue sharing is going to work.

These guys don't give a shit about that.

They don't want to hear that from me.

Don't you agree?

Oh, that was actually just...

But I don't know.

I don't know.

No, that was great.

It also gave my message, too.

You think so?

Damn right it did.

with this crap about priorities.

This silly chap from Pennsylvania.

Oh, he is an ass.

He is a real ass.

Yeah.

I got your, I got John Deacon.

I've been, I'm working with Mrs., I've got Ms. Meyer.

It's all right.

Go ahead.

I just want to give you a very brief report on Pat Gray, the happenings of the first day.

I think everything's going fine.

Pat,

might have gone a little bit farther than I would like to have him go with respect to the availability of FBI records to the Senate, you know, to satisfy themselves, but I think we still have control over it with respect to procedures.

I think his openness and his candor, Jim Eason this morning said that Urban is with him all the way, and I think he's really created a good environment up there.

Well, the main thing is don't let him get in a position

where he feels that he has to, in order to get confirmed, that he has to go so far with the Senate.

One thing he should not, I know, I guess Dean said he discussed it with you, and that Gray had said he'd leave it to the Attorney General, but I should point out, I know nobody's taken the trouble to read what I said about his case, that I read at the time, if you read my speech in the Congress, that's where I covered it, at the time, Dick,

that we got into the case, Truman issued an order to Clark, who was then Tom Clark, the Attorney General, and to Hoover, the FBI, that they were not to cooperate.

In the entire course of that investigation, the FBI closed its doors completely.

The Justice Department would not cooperate.

Nobody from the White House would cooperate.

But my point is, that was espionage against the United States of America as distinguished between hinky-dinky espionage with one party against another.

Now, my point is...

I think, looking back, Hoover was right.

I mean, Truman was right in the sense that you cannot have a congressional committee that can get FBI files.

But we crossed that bridge.

And if he goes so far as to say that he'll give it to members of Congress, what's he going to say when Bella Obzug says, I want to see the files with regard to the investigation of the riot in Miami or the Black Panthers?

But you see, he must – there must never be –

No individual congressman, no committee, nothing should have right to FBI files.

He made that clear, that whatever we do in the Watergate case is not to be a precedent.

It's got to be subject to the approval of the Attorney General and the President.

And I think the record is clear enough for us to control it.

Incidentally, you ought to go back and read that chapter on the Hiss case again, because

What you did as a result of what Truman did was just blow them out of water.

They politicized that their approach to it was a political approach, and I think that we want to avoid that ourself in this case.

Exactly.

That's a very thing that we want to avoid.

Oh, I mean, I'm not suggesting that we do what Truman did because we crossed that bridge.

But I'm simply saying don't let Irvin and these boys have a double standard.

I'd say, all right, now look here, boys, we're aware of that.

And do you realize what we've been up against over the past?

Let's remember this administration is being more cooperative than anybody else.

Well, I didn't want to...

Anyway, we wish you well.

And you're going to, as I told you, we set the procedure for Dean as the only fellow you should talk to here, except for me.

Yes, sir.

And you can see it from me.

The other one, and I should stay out of the damn thing.

Yes, sir.

But the other point is that I think you ought to... And then you should talk to...

baker and uh urban and be sure that baker's back you keep it good and stiff you know i mean he's clever but he's got to remember that he's got to be up a little bit he's got to be bucked up some because he's so anxious you know to you know get it all thinking of themselves themselves of being you know looking like great impartial investigators well fine if the other side is but i don't don't let howard but howard know that

I think it would crunch Howard, though.

He wants to be all right.

He certainly has nothing to gain to go in the other direction.

You remember Ralph Flanders?

I mean, those who think that they can go.

Remember Ralph became a hero of the Washington Press Corps because he went after Joe McCarthy?

uh a destroyed ralph that's what it does you can't take your own party apart i don't mean by that to cover up but i do mean that to join this just to pander to these these washington reporters dick this is the thing you've got to tell pat gray don't don't do it he's got to be very very good i'm meeting with him three times a day right well you understand that that's the main thing because you see that may not he doesn't have the political sophistication that you've got you say now pat don't be drug into this and that

I want him to be totally forthright.

I want him to be totally forthcoming.

He's got to establish the image of a lawman and all the rest.

But on the other hand, don't go to the point where he wins bravados in the columns and the editorials of the Eastern Press.

If you go that far, then you've lost because they do not want you to do the right thing.

They want you to do the wrong thing, see.

The other way.

Okay?

Yes, sir.

All right.

I won't bother you unless I have to.

No, no, no, any time.

But let me say that I'm deliberately limiting my communication only with Dean because you have confidence in him.

Yes, sir.

And I have.

He never opens his mouth.

Oh, one other thing that I think Pat, and I'm going to get Ziegler to do it, could play it a little bit differently.

I don't think he should indicate the... Of course, the thing that both times in the post picked up, as you might expect, was that he said he had reluctantly turned the files over to...

the FBI files over to the White House.

Well, obviously, Dean, but I have ordered Dean to conduct an investigation.

Good God, if he's going to make the files available to Congress, can he do it to the President?

That's the one thing we discussed the most, very specifically.

I said, for Christ's sake, Pat, the President of the United States, you know, this is his FBI and his department.

Well, but my point is I'd ordered an investigation.

Right.

And that's the only one that was getting it.

That's specifically.

Good.

Okay.

Good luck.

Bye.