Conversation 037-045

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hello hello mr president well you had a busy week yes we did we got very well out i thought the way you handled that pow thing was excellent well we uh it uh got uh it's in a position to bill where uh you see we were we stood firm and uh and the like and your statement over there was the public way and you're around here you know the the uh

When we pulled the mining off and the rest, the defense people said that they wanted to announce it.

And I said, no, sir.

I wouldn't let them say a word, you know, about it.

But we just did it.

Sure, everybody knew it.

And everybody knew it.

No, I know.

But I meant if we'd have done it and said, I am doing this or that, then it was a matter of faith for them.

It was like the bombing thing.

Exactly.

And I went over it all.

with Henry and everybody else.

And, of course, he was reflecting the Defense Department view, but he completely bought it.

I said, now, just let Bill make the statement over there, and we'll state it here, and that's be it.

Tell me, Bill, on this subject, how did the congressmen handle themselves all right?

Oh, great.

Do you think it'll help a little on getting them supporting it?

Well, of course, the fellows over there do support us, don't they, on the aid thing?

Yeah, but, well, they're all a little doubtful of McFaul, of course.

There's a whip over there.

Oh, I thought it was a great thing.

But it'll help get them lined up for it later.

That's right.

I'd address myself to it again in my little...

I didn't have a night thing, but I did a press conference Thursday, and I hit it again.

I think we could sell it in the end.

Bill Timmons was there, and he was very favorably impressed with the thing.

I think we could sell it to him.

I've never had any doubt about it.

Really?

No, I've never had any doubt about it.

We had Sammy Davis here last night, and he was just great, absolutely great.

And he spent the night.

Oh, did he?

Yeah, yeah.

And incidentally, I didn't know it, because I thought with the Kennedys and the Rat Packers,

This is the first time he had ever performed at the White House and the first time an American black has ever stayed overnight in the White House.

Is that a fact?

So it's sort of like Booker T. Washington, you know.

Isn't that great?

I didn't announce it, of course.

I didn't say it.

And I said, Simon, I think you, I said, have you ever seen it?

And he said, yes, I know.

I said, I have no one to exploit it.

He says, I know.

That's very good.

But isn't that nice, though?

Pretty clever fellow, isn't he?

Oh, God, what a performer.

He was great.

We did it mainly for congressmen last time.

We had about, God, about 100 of them.

senators to you know also I wanted to ask you about one thing as you know I'm we're all just everybody's terribly disturbed about this what has happened in the Sudan and what I just symbolically I lowered the White House flag too because obviously he's an ambassador from the president as well as the State Department so I got there but anyway I was wondering what

What do we provide for the way of compensation in cases of this sort?

I mean, is there anything that we do?

We're now in a situation where ambassadors and people around in that part of the world particularly are in a very hazardous position.

I don't know the answer to that.

I'll find out.

I think, of course, we have some provision, but I don't think we get anything special for this kind of... Well, it would seem to me that for families and so forth, of course, that it's more than the usual, you know, death on the job or so forth.

But when somebody...

Here's the point.

We have got to tell all our ambassadors, and I don't know quite how to do it.

Maybe you do it or I should or something.

I thought...

I was even thinking that maybe...

I would sit down with you and the top people in the department and we'd just talk about it.

I think all of them have got to be informed that, and the Foreign Service, that the policy of the United States has to be one of not paying ransom.

Because mainly, if we ever change that policy, we'll have a rash of it all over the world.

It's bad enough.

But on the other hand, nobody has to go.

You know what I mean?

It's a risky business that they're... Well, Mr. President, I don't know if you followed it, but I had a survey made among our Foreign Service people some time back anticipating this kind of trouble, and they all decided themselves that we should not pay ransom.

And we have announced that.

Would there be anything worthwhile?

You can just think about it.

If I were maybe to...

come over to state, maybe on Tuesday or something, and just sit down with the group and say, fellows, we just appreciate what you're doing and all that sort of thing.

I think it would be very good.

What I was thinking, I would say, I know this is it, and I appreciate the fact that this survey has shown it, and we can't begin this, but we want you to know we'll back you up, et cetera.

And you could get them together in a large group or a small group, and would it be something to pay a tribute to the people that were died and so forth?

It would be a tremendous idea, and I'd be glad to set it up.

Did you hear also that the wives have asked that their husbands be buried in Arlington Cemetery?

Now, they were both veterans.

No problem.

And so were the wives.

And interestingly enough, all four, both the two men and the two women, were veterans.

Of course.

Of course they should be buried there.

Of course.

So what we could do is you could announce that at that day, I think.

Yeah.

You could announce that.

Sure.

The plane is going to stay there to bring them back, I understand.

Yes.

I was going to send the presidential plane, but they said that was already there, and I thought that would be overdoing it.

Yes.

I think this is fine.

The other thing that we were thinking about is, you know, the Belgian was killed, too, and the suggestion was made that we stop on the way back and deliver the body to Belgium.

I think it would be a good thing.

Excellent.

To show the international character of this problem.

Yeah.

Now, we don't know about...

They're still holding the couple, aren't they?

Oh, that's all.

They've given up now.

The assassins have given up, and they're in the hands of the Sudanese government.

And the others have been...

The Arabs have been released.

Now, what are the Sudanese government going to do?

Well, that's the problem.

I was hoping they'd kill them.

I think they should kill them the minute they see them.

That's what they should do.

That's right.

But the Sudanese government handles stuff pretty well.

You know, one thing that occurred to me I've been thinking about a lot is I think maybe one of the things to do on these things is to cut off all communication with the terrorists.

What are the things that... Do we communicate with them?

Well, what I'm saying is just not... Cut off the telephone servers.

If they drop any notes, don't pick them up.

Just let them sit there.

They have a feeling that they can bargain with the world.

And we all get worried about how can we bargain with them.

You can't bargain with them because, like, their suggestion to us was so silly that, like, that's what, you know, like you said, when it was...

When Tom Jarrell asked me the question, what about Ceron, Ceron?

I said, well, that's ridiculous.

I said, of course, we can't do that.

Not our business.

I agree.

Why don't we do that?

Why don't we develop?

Why don't you start developing within the department?

You can say that we talked about it and that you're working on it.

frankly, a plan to deal with these goddamn things, because we're going to have more.

You know, you asked me some time back, and we've set up a very good task force, including a lot of people in the government.

They meet regularly, and they've done a pretty good job.

But these things happen in such unexpected ways in foreign countries.

Yeah, and you don't know.

But you could have certain policies knowing.

Who would have thought we could go to the Saudi Arabian embassy?

Who would have thought you'd have a

the Fedayeen go to the Saudi Arabian embassy and capture Arabs as well as Americans.

And also, of all the people that killed, why the Americans?

Well, they want us to squeeze the Jordanians.

That's right.

And they were trying to also to get some of the Fedayeen out of the Jordanian jails.

Jordan has got out Fedayeen that they were going to execute somebody that I think tried to assassinate the king.

And they delayed the execution.

And one of the things these fellows wanted was the release of that prisoner.

It's really unfortunate that Jordan hadn't executed him.

And the thing they do seems to me just be tough.

Well, that's right.

You can't dilly-dally with these fellas.

Of course, there's nothing we can do about being tough on them, except to back up the governments that are tough on them and not back those that aren't.

But Sudan is pretty good about it.

Yeah.

Pretty good about it.

Well, listen, next, it'll be them.

That's right.

They don't watch out.

These people are nuts.

Well, Mr. Ferdinand, I think that's a great idea, and I'll set it up, and I'll make...

I was thinking that...

Frankly, the better day for me is Tuesday.

Rather, like Monday.

See, I'm going to Camp David to do some writing this afternoon.

And I could perhaps get back and do it Monday.

That might be better, might it not?

It might be before when the bodies come back.

Should we wait till they get back?

No.

Oh, I don't know.

I think it might be better to do it before they get back.

I think we should do it, yeah.

I'll tell you what, you get the dope for me and give me a call.

I'll be leaving here in about 15 minutes.

And give me a call as to when they get back.

And then I could come back or just tell Jack Brennan up there.

And then I could arrange to come back and come back a little earlier.

I could be back around 3, 4 o'clock.

But what I had in mind was that, you see,

i went over the defense department on the pow thing and i was trying to think of something doing straight and of course god knows we didn't want this but i thought i could just go over and talk to the people and say look i know how you worked and i know that this and that and this points it up and we want to thank you and tell you we back you up etc so something like that what about uh well let's uh let me let me get some thought to it i'll suggest several of those things then you can make a choice for example we could have a meeting with a

With Foreign Service Association, we had a lot of them, and you could have a talk.

What we could do is have a preliminary meeting with some of the top people.

That's right.

And talk to the whole Foreign Service group.

Yeah, and then they, remember you could even get them in the, how many would that be, in the hall there?

Yeah, you got them in the hall, or you could get them in that eighth floor room.

You could get, oh, four or five hundred in there.

I think actually getting four or five hundred,

is worth doing so that all of them sort of have a feeling that we but then yet but then so that doesn't just appear like a gimmick we ought to meet with your people that's right first well we could meet with the diamond myers group and some of the top they're the ones that have been working on this problem and they've really been doing a good job seriously yeah and they've got the fbi and everybody else and they've i mean they thought of everything in this country that you could possibly think of and they've got they've set up special task forces and they've really done a damn good job but this one is so unexpected

And the one in Haiti, the same way.

How the hell can you guard against that?

You know, you can...

Wait, we didn't... What did we... We didn't... Well, the Haiti one, I ran it.

Was that an ambassador?

Yes.

Did he get killed?

No, we got him out.

Oh, yeah.

But now, the one we lost before was a US...

I mean, an AID guy.

Wasn't that in Brazil or someplace?

You remember?

Well, that was Guatemala, wasn't it?

Well, I remember about two years ago, and I remember seeing the wife later.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

I went out to Ohio to the funeral.

Ohio, yes.

David went out for me, remember?

That's right.

Now, who was that?

Wasn't that AID, or was it Foreign Service?

That was aid.

Aid.

That's right.

But you're doing the same thing.

That's right.

But what I mean is that we...

We naturally, of course, we've now indicated total backing for our military POWs, which are who basically were hostages.

I think it's a nice touch to indicate total backing for our others, you know, in a curious kind of way.

Very good.

Well, I'll tell you, I'll set it up.

I'll give you some choices.

Well, you give me not a choice but a recommendation to what you think.

And in the meantime, we'll... Because I have some thoughts for...

for some remarks.

And it might be that when I do the full group, you'd even let the press cover it.

You know, so that they... And then I could make a few... What I would do, Bill, is to use it as a basis for saying some good things about the Foreign Service generally, see?

Right, I know.

Make about a 15-minute talk.

That's what I had in mind, see?

And we've been thinking about how to do this, you know.

You and I have talked about it before.

And then I could do that, and then I could say, I want to talk about the Foreign Service and so forth and so on, and that we've been through a great historic year, and now we've got other business, and this is that, and the other thing, and you're going to play a terribly important part, and we want you to do this,

And then say, no, I want to talk about this tragedy.

Whack.

Let me ask one other question.

What would you think about it at a meal or lunch?

It would be better not to, I guess, don't you think?

I have no objection.

That might mean more.

They have these luncheons, Foreign Service Association luncheons.

We could get in 300 or 400 people there.

Yeah.

And we can have a meeting ahead of time with the working group.

Well, now, how about if we had a luncheon, though, how about the camera workings?

Oh, yes, that's all right.

We can work that in.

All right.

Let me ask you this, because we're doing it for that purpose.

Would it mean more to them to have a luncheon?

I'll find out.

I don't know the answer to that.

I could do either.

I could either do that, come over and meet with you, and then meet them in the hall.

The luncheon...

I had lunch at the Defense Department, so I could have lunch here.

It might mean a little bit more to them.

Do it that way, then?

Why not?

That's the purpose of it.

Let's see about Tuesday.

Let me check on it.

Tuesday, then, if you're going to do it then, it should be Tuesday rather than Monday.

That's right.

Because I think we need a day to prepare it, don't you think?

I do.

Tuesday's a little better for me.

All right.

Well, let's think about Tuesday, then, and check it out.

Okay.

Thanks, Mr. President.

Bye.