Conversation 037-132

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Hello.

Good evening, Mr. President.

How's your morale?

Well, my morale is great, sir.

How's your business coming along?

Pretty good?

Yes, sir, it is.

It's been busy getting organized and getting moved this week and still having a lot of things to clean up back at the White House.

But it's coming fine.

I was in New York today, but my secretary told me that I had received a very

nice letter from you.

I have not seen it, but I appreciate it very much.

So I think it's coming along fine.

You really hit them right between the chops yesterday, beautifully.

I thought that I read it.

Well, everybody, you know, people here are pretty obsessed with that thing, and you know, they naturally look down the road and see the

horrible spectacle of the urban going on you know week after week for a couple of days and it's going to be that way i think we have to expect that well i think you put it in perspective yesterday perfectly i read the transcript this morning and and did not see the television last night because i was traveling but i thought you just laid it on absolutely perfectly and and i gather from the accounts i've had with you know very firmly and

the damn thing to rest.

I really cannot... Not to rest.

Well, I mean, as far as... No, we've got, you know, we've got a weak Reed and Baker, of course, and the whole thing is just a continuing problem.

It's sort of like one of those...

thousand cut steels of the Chinese talk about, you know, they keep drawing a little blood each time.

Well, but I think the point of it, Mr. President, is that they have not been able to lay a glove on you anywhere.

And I think what kills them the most is that not only is this the man they thought they'd buried once and was their arch nemesis, you talk about the president, but here's a man who beat him and beat him by the biggest majority ever.

And now, lo and behold, is a popular president.

And I think this is what drives all the Mary McGorys and the Carl Rowans who are just screaming over this.

This is what drives them crazy.

And the only thing they've got that they can write about, or Herblock can draw cartoons about, or the Post can editorialize about, is the Watergate.

So they are going to keep doing that until they feel they have a better issue.

What amazes me is that they don't get under the food price.

Yeah, that's a tough one.

And that'll be tough for about three months.

Yeah, but that's a tough one that would have some bite out in the country.

This one has no impact in the country.

Not yet.

Of course, when they go on television, Chuck, we have to realize it's kind of like the McCarthy hearings.

It'll get through.

Yeah, but the underlying issue is different, Mr. President.

In the McCarthy hearings, you had a lot of people who were as damn concerned as I was.

I remember it.

communism and government that's an issue that got people kind of excited and of course then mccarthy became and mccarthy was a of course a good drawing card sure and he became the issue and he was powerful i mean and when they uh i'm not sure that after they get mitchell and stans off uh what others they can put on i mean nobody's going to give a damn when chapin goes up while he isn't going up but uh

Magruder and all those people, Sloan and the rest.

We hope not.

The only basis I have to judge it on, Mr. President, was with the Warner Communications people today.

Which?

Warner Communications, the Warner Brothers movie.

Warner Brothers, oh yeah.

Good people.

Sure.

Mostly Jewish.

I don't imagine that they're Republicans.

But they're good people.

But they are, and...

We're going to be doing some work with them.

And all around the table, they were telling how, of course, obviously they wanted to be nice to me, but they were telling how tremendously impressed they were with you and how their impressions had changed over the years and how you had brought such dignity to the White House.

Two of them mentioned the dignity of the White House and how you'd take, of course, great interest in the movie industry.

That they directly appreciated.

But there's a...

nobody i was in boston yesterday with some old clients nobody raises watergate or if they do they raise it in a sympathetic way isn't it damn shame that all that stuff is continuing in the newspapers i think i would know if people were i think i would get a feeling for it if people were concerned especially republicans i think during the campaign i can remember a lot of calls where people were saying oh god can't you get rid of this or how did you ever get into this mess

One of our major problems, really, Chuck, is the Republicans in the Senate and the House.

They don't stand up, do they?

No, they don't.

Except for Goldwater.

That's right.

The majority of them do not.

Unfortunately, Howard Baker has been asking to see me, and I've been a little reluctant to go up and talk to him because I didn't want to— You let him come down.

Well, I might.

I might have him come down to the office.

To your office, yeah.

His administrative assistant.

Tell him if you come up to his place, it's going to be a big story.

That's right.

Which is what he wants, of course.

Yeah, I guess he does.

I'm a little disappointed.

I was very disappointed in the way he reacted yesterday.

Yeah, well, he went particularly, and he knew damn well that I had told him there would be no appearances in public.

Sure, and here's a guy who, for God's sakes, was just really much...

and doesn't have any political problems.

I don't quite understand Howard Baker.

Well, he's trying to be a big hero.

He doesn't realize that if he is a hero against his own party, he's finished himself and his party, no matter how it comes out.

It doesn't make a difference.

That's right.

Lowell Weicker, I can understand.

That's part of the Northeast rich boy son liberal syndrome.

Lowell Weicker, in my opinion, is always going to be...

We helped him because we wanted to win that Senate seat in seven.

But he'll never have much character.

But I think I hope for a little better out of Baker than this.

Well, I'd see him.

But yes, I would.

But I'd see him.

I wouldn't go up there.

I would.

No, I've been reluctant to do it.

Don't go up to the Senate.

Stay away from there.

Let him come see you.

Say, look, I'd put it on the basis of, look, it's going to be too big a story.

You ought to

just drop by and you'll see him socially or something, you know, arrange a place.

Oh, sure.

Well, I think I can probably do that.

I mean, I know I can do it.

He'll do that, but I'm curious why.

I think he's...

I can't quite figure him out.

He's had a lot of problems with his wife, and he's been a... As a matter of fact, he's been a disappointment in many respects.

He's not a...

He has not shown the strength that... That's why he isn't a leader.

That's right.

He could have been.

That's right.

All the stuff going...

But George Webster has been talking to him for us and has not come back very encouraged from his discussion.

Is he fine?

Well, he just says that Howard doesn't have the spine, the backbone that he should have.

Gurney has been great, of course.

Yeah, and he's coming up, too.

I don't want to hurt him.

Well, hell, if there's

be entirely wrong about it and the issue could be simmering out there but but I damned if I see any evidence of it and I think I would I just think you I think what they're thinking is not what it is today but what it will be when they start in May and then go on with their roadshow for about two or three months well people people can get awfully tired Mr. President of something which is

It's politics, you know, and here we are carrying on politics in a non-election year.

You know how tired people got of the presidential campaign.

They'd made up their minds how they were going to vote in September of last year.

And there was damn little change from, well, damn little change from July on, really, but people got sick of the campaign.

It sure did.

We kept counting the days, wanting it to end.

And the public was the same way.

Now I just can't believe that you can generate a great deal of excitement over essentially a political issue.

And the hyperbole of some of the reporters, I just think that's, from their standpoint, that's counterproductive.

Well, I don't...

get the feeling that Frank Fitzsimmons, who's a pretty good barometer, because he goes all around the country and he talks to local union people, and he gets letters and he gets phone calls.

The only thing that people are talking about in a negative way, they're talking about the prisoners and they're so damned excited about them.

And food prices.

Food prices.

Sure, we understand.

The only thing they hit Frank on, nobody mentions Watergate.

And maybe some of the sophisticates, but even, I don't even get it from them.

Maybe they won't give it to me, but it sure doesn't surface in the public opinion polls as an issue.

And I can't imagine that they're keeping it alive for two or three months, I think, would just bore the hell out of people.

You know, they did that with IT&T.

We kept thinking it was going to be kept in an election year.

Hell, it didn't have any impact at all.

Because the issue itself didn't...

I suppose they're figuring here, though, they've got a little bigger fish to fry, you know.

They're shooting at higher people, aren't they?

In a sense.

That's what they think, at least.

Well, you remember that day you had Flanagan on the griddle in the IDC.

Yeah.

But I mean, they're thinking now about, you know, Mitchell and Haldeman and all that sort of thing, you know.

that's what they really are after well that's yeah they are sure but uh yeah i just as i said i wonder how much that really cuts for the uh the american people and i don't think it's anything like the sherman adams case i remember well he was accused of a crime of taking personal that's right that's right a different thing that's right and so when people say why did he testify because he was accused of something but they're not saying that yet

about our people only they only want us about the knowledge not about the crime yeah and i don't think there's any question uh i mean no one if someone were taking a bribe which is really what the adams case was about sure the oriental rug and the vicuna coat and the hotel bills and he allegedly intervened in the administrative agency that's quite a different thing and the campaign activity

My feeling about it, Mr. President, is that it is evidence of how little they've got to do.

They really don't have any place to attack you.

And you're, in my opinion, you're stronger than you've ever been.

I think the return of those prisoners and the ending of the war the way it's ended and the prisoners coming back, I just think the...

the country with the one exception that we've talked about isn't isn't a marvelous frame of mind and these guys are just this is the one place they can try to get at it and we we have to be there's no other way than just to hardline it i think the way that he has to do is marvelous i think the fact that you came out this week when when there was a lot of heat and a lot of fire over watergate was great because

That showed you weren't ducking the issue.

You came right out and hit it head on.

You did it very firmly.

You drew very good, I thought very interesting, very significant parallels.

made your point very clearly.

And at least, you know, the worst thing would be the beleaguered president in hiding.

That's right.

Yeah, with the Senate attacking.

That's right.

No, no, it was great to come right out and hit it right at the time that Dean is under the most fire.

And put it to rest and say you're not going to comment on it.

Let them keep...

But that we will furnish all information.

Sure.

Well, and of course the point, which no one has... Well, Dick Wilson, I guess, made it a little bit tonight in the story.

uh everybody fully cooperated with the fbi and the grand jury i mean there wasn't a single question that any white house aid or any cabinet officer was asked by the fbi or the grand jury it wasn't answered in full to my knowledge at least certainly everything they asked me i answered and i think everybody else did the same thing what the hell that's it that's full cooperation now to go to go further is as wilson put it kind of a

strictly a political fishing expedition and i think there's a damn good legitimate argument that the office of the president should not be exploited for that purpose and i just get some people in the senate other than just go out of press maybe three four others and maybe that could be listened to that would take up the cudgels a bit that would be helpful wouldn't it yes um maybe i should start talking to some of the people i

There ought to be some who would get a little incensed at this, really.

Yeah.

Maybe that's an area that I should try to talk to someone.

Well, you might, you know, in a discreet way so that they don't say that, well, we were... Oh, I can do it now.

Sure.

Right.

Maybe I should.

That's a... Maybe you should have a little fun with them.

Well, a few of the columnists have been getting it now.

There's a glimmer of it.

As I say, Wilson tonight had it in the...

Some of the stalwarts have been writing pretty good stuff.

Maybe if we got a few of the guys in the Senate.

All right.

One or two have talked to me about it.

Ed Brook, oddly enough, was one.

He's been very silent on this, but he felt that the senators had gone too far in their unfounded accusations against the administration.

All right.

Well, you know, the most shocking thing is the fact that they took those raw FBI files and I pointed out that what the hell, you know, I really stuck it to him on that his case thing, too, where that jerk asked that question, where he said, well,

hell of a difference.

It was us being Oshkosh, the country.

They should have cooperated.

They didn't even give us anything.

That's right.

By order of President Truman.

That's right.

In this case, you've ordered everyone to cooperate.

I thought you made that point.

Well, it was, as always, a tremendous press conference.

I did not hear this one, as I've heard others inside.

I

I think the people, I'd assume that you're going to want to, I would hope you'd think about doing one on a prime time televised, because I think you're masterful at turning those questions to your advantage.

As I said, I read the transcript and I could see where you took every one of them and used them brilliantly, including the...

I thought the well-justified little rap at Gray, frankly, in comparing him to, in talking about Hoover.

Gray did not use good judgment.

Did not distinguish himself on that, no.

It was bad judgment to turn over the raw files to a full committee.

He could have turned it over to part of it, but not the full committee.

Even the use of raw files.

They've always made the raw files available to Eastland and others when they've had somebody up for consideration, you know.

That's all right, but you do it on the basis that you do it only to people that will keep it private.

Well, it's like the CIA budget.

A few people in the Senate that you know damn well you can... Stenis and others, but you just...

It destroys the effectiveness of the FBI.

I know damn well I'd have an entirely different attitude towards talking to them in the future than I've had in the past.

Absolutely.

And we'll think about the leaks and... That's right.

does hurt their effectiveness well you might have a little fun with some of the senators in a quiet way well i might i might talk to a few this weekend i'll also see what what baker's sniffing around on i it may be that he the message i got from him which was through george webster of course uh although i will say webster was disappointed in him but he he came back and he did say he would like to talk to me said it twice this week and he said the real thing he'd like to know he said he just wants to know whether he's going to stick his neck out and then get

get it sawed off.

Well, talk to him.

I told Webster that that was not the case, but I knew that this was a case where he could step up and become a hero.

Yeah, we don't want him to get his neck sawed off, but he needs to be assured on that, you know, because the problem is that many of our guys are scared to death for fear that there's something there that's going to come out that's going to make them look like... Oh, that's the whole... That was the whole message from Baker.

Mm-hmm.

You know, he wanted to know, and he said he would trust me if I would come tell him that.

Well, I was a little... Don't go down there.

You haven't seen you.

But if he'll come down, I think I can assure him of that.

Maybe that'll stiffen his back, because that may be what is concerning him.

Well, also, he's got to know that whatever his views are, he's not going to win if he takes the view that he's going to participate in an attack on the president.

No, and basically he's not like that.

I think it may be that he's just a little nervous.

Maybe I can settle him down a bit.

I'll assure him that no one in the White House knew anything.

That's something that may... That's what he needs to know.

Yeah.

Well, I'll take a crack at that and see if I can also line up a few other stalwarts on the hill.

Good luck.

Thank you, Mr.