On March 19, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 8:34 pm to 8:58 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 037-162 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Oh, is that right?
Well, I saw Bob Dole the night they had a little going-away thing for me that Bob came to, and Bob said, why didn't you grab that example of Senator Ervin, who argued the case in the Supreme Court about congressional aides not being forced to testify?
I'd forgotten completely about that, but we'll do a little research, and Bob said he might start taking Ervin on on this issue.
He'd be a good one to do it if he would.
Oh, he'd be great.
And he got quite stirred up over it.
It's a hell of a good analogy.
Irvin argued that in the court, that there's an immunity for congressional aides, and they can't be forced to testify in the proceedings that have been brought in the district court.
It's a great analogy to make with the present situation, which I think, personally, has just gotten out of hand.
I just think it's preposterous what the issue the Congress is trying to make out of this.
Well, it's predictable, though, isn't it?
Urban is just a shrewd politician, and he's playing it politically for all it's worth.
76 years old.
He's, I think, or 75, which he's up next time.
It's kind of his last hurrah.
He's in the spotlight with everybody praising him as the great constitutional lawyer.
Yeah.
And he loves it, and he loves the ladies, as you know, always has.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, sure.
He sees himself on television.
He's in the spotlight.
I mean, that's just the... Yeah.
We mustn't, of course, overreact to the fact that he's on Face the Nation and gets a play.
I mean, of course, he'll get a much bigger play when he goes on with his road show, but in the meantime, we have to have a few things that...
thinking the other way.
What about in North Carolina?
I would think that somebody would be ready to start running against him.
Well, I think there are.
Of course, the governor down there is doing a pretty good job from all the reports I've had.
But the split in the party is right at the moment between the conservatives.
Is Gardner going to run?
Well, Gardner would be the one, I think, who could do it.
He's an attractive fellow.
He's got a lot of money.
He's got a good name.
He's run statewide a couple of times.
He's not in good shape with the governor.
Oh, I know.
I know.
But he could, on the other hand, he'd take him on hard and tough, which I would think he'd have to do.
Yeah.
What I think, I really think they're in a position where they can overplay this.
I just don't.
Well, I see that the point is, though, that he's got to have somebody dipping at his heels a bit to keep him sort of in shape, don't you think?
I'll check that situation in North Carolina.
I haven't in the last...
I did before on the trip to Europe.
Harry Dent is probably familiar with that situation.
And see what they can do down there.
But they... Because they're in a...
They're in a...
got us in a fairly tough position in the sense of, you know, that we, you know, they're trying to get the impression that we're not being forthcoming, which we are.
It's just the method that we try to keep, get that across.
We're hit it again today.
We try to, and we've got to get that across at every opportunity.
Well, you're hearing that, Mr. President, mostly from the Washington Post.
and the New York Times.
If you go beyond that, I just haven't seen that many editorials coming in from around the country that take the same position that the Times and Post do.
They set us up for this in the sense that they knew that you would have to take the position you have taken on executive privilege, and have just every day been writing the same kind of paper.
They put a different heading on it some days.
Totally predictable editor.
And I just don't believe this particular issue is... Yeah, you're locking people up in the Senate.
It looks rather churlish.
It looks petty.
I think people in the country...
I'm convinced people in the country are still not affected by this issue.
Not yet.
No, that's true.
My God, the battering we've had in the media around this since last June.
If they're not affected by now, they're not going to be affected.
I just can't imagine the hearings having that much more impact.
Particularly if we can start getting across some of the fact that we're being forthcoming.
I think it's rather good they're making Dean the issue because Dean is the one guy in the
I mean, he's not involved at all.
He's purely as a lawyer.
He has nothing to do with the... Well, sure, plus the fact he's got a double privilege.
Right.
But he's also, as far as getting him up there or anything that's concerned, which we can't do, but Dean is in a very strong position to say, well, you know... Oh, yeah.
Actually, his involvement in some of the subsequent activities, which is...
are sensitive, he's totally covered because he's been acting as a capacity as counsel.
No, I just think that Dean is, if they're going to make a test case, he's their weakest case.
I don't think they'll make it.
Do you still feel that we have to stand firm on the no appearance up there?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think it would be a terrible mistake not to back off on that issue, Mr. President.
What we have to do, though, is to not back off.
and at the same time not get in the box where we're in a position of not cooperating.
Well, what we have to do, where we're getting a bad rap in the press is that, and it's only, I believe, only the Post and the Times, is the cover-up argument.
It's all part of the argument because you made it very clear right from the start that everybody who was asked to cooperate with the FBI would cooperate and did.
Everybody who was asked to appear before the grand jury would and did.
And all the information has been spread on the public record.
There isn't anything that hasn't been, not the public record, but has now been made public.
The only thing that you gain by televised hearings before the Congress is either something beyond the scope of the criminal investigation or just a plain political fishing expedition.
And if people cared, you know, if there were Vicuna Coates involved, well, that's a different story than I would have to say to you.
That's right.
I think the interesting note that Teddy started to whip out on this thing, somebody ought to nip at him a little about his...
He's wide open.
And I don't know who can do it, but Dole or somebody really ought to take him on and say, how about it now?
Senator, how about the double standard here?
I just may have an occasion to... You should just say it.
...take Teddy myself.
Fitzsimmons and I are speaking at the Middlesex Club dinner in Boston.
That's good.
You spoke out of...
the year 1968, I think it was.
And I think if... We may have some fun with Teddy before this is over, because Fitzsimmons naturally hates it.
Hates anybody with the name Kennedy.
That's right.
But I'm seeing Harold Baker's man tomorrow, Mr. President.
He's coming to my home tomorrow night.
I talked to Harold.
His lawyer?
No, just his administrative assistant.
He is Hugh Branson.
And...
I think, at least from what he told me on the phone, all he wants to know, all Howard wants to know, is that if he gets out on a limb, he's going to be out defending somebody that's guilty.
That's right.
True.
And I'm going to try to, tomorrow evening at home, where we won't be, it's a good place to meet.
I think I can go through with him enough that...
I hope that'll reassure Howard.
I think that's all Howard needs, because he's basically... Howard Baker is basically a party man.
Yeah.
He doesn't... We mustn't let him think, Bill, that he can sort of take in Irvin.
Irvin is a very smart southern partisan.
Oh, hell yeah.
And that's what he's playing here.
He's a cagey and he's a rude fella, and he's got a good wit.
He's very sharp for a man that age.
He really is.
No, I don't think Baker feels...
I think that having somebody nip at his heels fairly soon, you know, running against him would be very good.
I might get that started.
Good old Helen Bentley told me she wants to start nipping at Mac Mathias' heels now.
I'm not so sure that's not a bad idea.
She's going to run against him?
Well, she'd like to be encouraged to.
I'll encourage her if that helps.
Yeah.
No, she may start to...
campaign in Maryland, which I think would not do Max Tobias any harm, because he's been a weak read on that committee with the Gray hearing.
But I'll check the North Carolina.
I think that getting Harry Dent to check out Gardner would be tough.
Gardner would hit hard.
The point is, he would do anything.
That's the point.
He's tough, and that's what you need, somebody that'll lash out and not...
He's got no obligations and some money.
Go out and move around that state.
And he... And he had Urban, basically, on his age and a lot of other things.
That's right.
Well, that's what beat Jordan in that state.
That's right.
And they're about the same age.
Urban is 75, huh?
See, this...
It seems to me it's 76, but I just...
But damn it, he shouldn't be running.
That's the point.
He's too goddamn old.
Yeah, it's up in the 70s.
I know that.
It's 70s.
I may be off here.
Well, that's close enough.
It has to be there.
Right.
Of course he was in, but...
Right.
That'll be... That's one I'll take on.
Also, I do think the point Dole raises is a damn good one, this analogy.
I forgot that Irvin had argued that damn case in the court.
That was on the Gravel case.
Oh, yes, about Gravel's administrative assistance.
Right, and the congressional immunity.
And the arguments were very brilliant arguments about the need for a relationship between a senator and his assistant staff.
You can't probe that separation of powers.
I've got to get it out first thing in the morning.
I can't stand it.
So I did when Bob was explaining it.
Bob said he would take it out.
He'd kind of make that up.
If we could get the thing put together so that Bob could really go after him on this, Bob might as well.
It ain't going to hurt him in Kansas.
Oh, hell no.
He's got his dapper up.
I've been helping him with the youngsters out there.
That's right.
He's beginning to feel a little better about his home state politics right now.
Right.
Oh, hell, he'll win out there.
Good God.
But he's an old lady about it.
I know he is.
Yeah, sure, sure.
That's all right.
If he's worried, he'll win.
That's right.
He's working at it, and that's important.
Behaving right, that's important.
So I think that's good.
Well, we'll just keep on the thing, but I see no course open now but to keep...
Keep right on this line of cooperating, but no circus up there.
No, I don't think you should veer from that, Mr. President.
I think once you threw down the standard, I think to back down now, you'd be harassed to death for the entire second term.
I just don't think you can do it.
And if there was ever a time to make a fight, this is the time to make it.
Your standing in the country is so high.
I have now...
I've been back almost two weeks from Europe.
I've now talked to an awful lot of people around the country.
I don't think your stock has ever been any higher than my memory.
And it really is just universal.
It's an extraordinary thing.
One of my law partners, who's a lifelong Democrat, he's ready to convert.
He said, I just think this man is doing so much for peace in the world.
But if you ever had to make a fight, this is the time to make it, because I just think
The Senate looks childish and petty and sort of... What do you think they're going to do with Dean?
Just hold him hostage?
I mean with Gray, yes.
I say that without any first-hand information.
I haven't talked to members of that committee, but I rather hope they do.
I might as well just have him out there.
Well, he's a tough-looking Irishman.
kind of looks like the new majority.
And that's not bad, but I'm holding him hostage.
Well, his fault was he went up there and told them everything.
Yeah, well, he's, yes.
I mean, and of course, to give away this whole business of FBI raw files, of course, we had to take him back and bring him up short on that.
He handled himself.
I mean, I've known Pat since the old days, back in the 50s, but I
He showed worse judgment than I ever, I mean, I didn't think.
I did it all on his own.
I thought his judgment was better than these hearings would indicate.
His conduct in these hearings.
Right.
But I think letting him be hostage is fine.
It's just playing petty politics.
And that's not the mood of the country right now.
It really is not.
And if there ever is a time to stand the ground, it is now.
You've got to stand the ground, but at the same time to get across the fact that we are cooperating.
That's what we have to do more of.
We're trying, we're doing our best, but they aren't using it.
That's the problem.
They just don't get that out.
You know, it isn't our fault.
We try.
No, I know.
We put it out at every opportunity.
I hit it hard and so forth, but that's the part they don't use.
Well, that's right.
That's why the media have that weapon with us.
But we just keep hammering it, and it's a very, very defensible run right now.
Very defensive.
And I'll keep doing as much as I can with the people on the Hill.
Yeah, you can talk to them now.
You're free to.
Right.
That's right.
And we'll be doing a little speaking.
People that you know and do some speaking.
Take a whack at them.
I enjoy it.
And I think, I mean, as I say, of all people to start yakking around.
Teddy Kennedy.
Teddy.
Good God.
I mean, I'm rather surprised at that because this is not in his interest, really.
No, it isn't.
No, it isn't.
He's been very careful since the election, not to appear to be the... Until now.
Right as a spear carrier until this one.
Why do you think he stepped out on it?
You rather think he's got a good issue, huh?
No, I just think that's Teddy.
He shot from the hip a little bit.
I think if he thought about it, he'll say something very kind in the next week.
He isn't that stable.
This isn't out of character with the guy of his temperament.
I think I'll have Fitzsimmons take a whack at him in Boston.
Work him over a little.
Yeah, that'd be kind of fun.
Right.
We'll cut him up a bit.
Right, right, right.
When you called Friday, Mr. President, I had not seen the letter you sent me, but my secretary had told me about it.
I've now read it.
That's the most beautiful letter that I have ever seen in my life.
Well, we want you to know we appreciate what you've done.
I'm just so proud of that oath.
The main thing now is to remember it's a continuing battle and just keep fighting.
I'm in there.
All right.
Whatever comes, we'll fight like hell.
And it's just unfortunate that we have to have this thing hanging around us, but it's just one of those things, isn't it?
If it weren't this, it would be something else.
We've been through this cycle so many times now that it's a damn shame that we let it distract us.
That's the point, yeah.
It really is, because if it doesn't count with the public, damn it, it just isn't worth the...
It isn't worth making it to take us away from more important things.
The issues that count with the people now, the prisoner issue has had an enormous impact.
Prisoner issues and food prices.
That's right, and on the negative side, food prices.
The prisoner thing, though, has just got to kill our opponents because, I mean, as far as the December bombing, for example, which everybody was...
backing away from, including Henry, that now, hell, the prisoners have made that case so strong that everybody's afraid to attack it.
Isn't that marvelous?
You know, we haven't heard a word from Teddy or McGovern or any of those fellows.
And the bombing now, the prisoners, it's just very moving, what they've done.
And of course, that plus the fact that the war is over, and times are good.
One exception is
who are grumbling about their food bills, but they're going to grumble about something.
Things are never perfect, and so that'll be the problem for a while.
Within about five months, that'll be something else.
The country has calmed, the position you've taken on crime.
Yeah, the crime thing, we want to keep that going.
Boy, that's a good issue.
That's a hell of an issue, and we've got to keep that up more front and center than we have.
And you're totally on the strong side of that issue, totally.
a great one to keep hitting.
The Democrats have got no place to go.
You know, if you were sitting on their side, I'd feel pretty damn frustrated right now.
You have a president re-elected that not only was re-elected by a landslide, but now is at a peak of popularity.
And everything going his way.
If I were in the opposition, I'd be worried.
With one candidate, the Democrats can groom for
And if he doesn't go or drinks himself into the ground, really, where are they?
They really don't have another one at the moment, do they?
And it's, I don't know who they can build at the moment.
There's no governor that's worth a damn.
Fascinating the support that Connolly's got at the moment in terms of people wanting to get with him.
Provided he makes the move.
He's got to make that move.
I was trying to reach him this week and tell him he's just got to do it.
Ted, forever, called me and said he's got money and people and
The switch is ready to go.
Amazing, the people that have been in contact with me to help Conley.
It may be that he's a little afraid of this Watergate thing.
You think that's part of it?
Oh, I don't think so, Mr. President.
He's just being coy.
That's John's way.
Sure.
To make that $2 million.
I've got to work on him.
I had him right up on the verge just before, well, he committed to me he was going to go just before you.
Yeah.
Well, he's got to go when he's ready, and we can't push him to where he doesn't want to.
You know how he is.
He'll balk, but when he does move, it's going to have one hell of an effect.
Oh, it's going to ripple all over the country.
I'm now convinced of it from the number of people that I've heard from.
When they stop to think of it, you know, they think of Connolly and they compare him with the others.
And any Democrat, for Christ's sakes, of all of the potentials we have, the one that would be the toughest for Kennedy would be Connolly.
Yep, that's right.
And Rockefeller, he's thinking of it, but the age thing really kills him, let's face it.
It does kill him.
It does.
Apart from the liberal background, it hurts him too.
And his judgment every now and then is not worth a damn.
I'm nervous about it.
Reagan is too old, too, really too doctrinaire.
So you really only got him, you got Connolly, you got Agnew, of course, and Percy.
Percy will never be nominated by the Republican Party.
Ever.
I don't think so.
Oh, good God, no.
The party's been going one way and he's been going the other.
No question what the dominant mood of the party is.
It's not Percy's.
No, it's Agnor Conley.
That must do the press in, too.
Oh, they hate it.
Of course, that's why they're so damn vitriolic of Watergate, because you've transformed the country.
And what have they got that they can shoot at?
Well, the only damn thing they've got they can shoot at is Watergate.
And so they make a national obsession over whether some senior at George Washington University was paid $100...
and then they get the general accounting office to investigate it, and that makes a second day story, and then Sam Irvin says something about it, and that's a third day story, and nobody gives a damn.
It's just not that kind of an issue where the public...
I think that's right.
I think what, of course, we have to have in mind, that when they begin their hearings in May, they'll make quite a splash.
Well, you remember they had the ITT hearings.
They had people parading before those cameras and were counting up the hours on television at night and getting ill because they were taking the first seven minutes around.
That's right.
It didn't matter whether they had.
It just wasn't.
And maybe they will when they get, maybe if they televise the urban hearings and they have some confrontation.
But I don't think controversy and I don't think espionage, I don't think intrigue,
moves people.
I think they're interested.
They'll read it, but I don't think they're going to decide that that's very important to them.
I think bribery and corruption is something else.
That's correct.
They're looking at that and thinking that affects the qualification of the people.
And they get incensed because somebody's getting something for nothing.
And that's the same with welfare, and that's the same with busing, and that's crime.
It's the something for nothing.
Someone's getting away with something.
But hell, with spying on headquarters or refusing to send an aide to the Congress, most people don't understand that to begin with.
They don't understand why the hell anyone who's an immediate aide of yours should have to go before the Congress.
That doesn't...
Particularly if we put out that we're furnishing all the information.
But I don't think...
I think that thing about the urban thing, I think it ought to be hit very soon, very hard, really.
I'm going to get...
If Dole would hit it, that would be good, saying, oh, look, what's the standard here?
What's the difference?
Sure.
Oh, no.
Jen Nasky.
Well, Bob was all cranked up tonight to do it.
Good.
I'll do the research and get that and see if I can get Baker back on the track.
Baker's out of the country this week.
And also get... Let's see that the North Carolina Republicans ought to be starting to...
I mean, split or not, if they can get just, even if they get two candidates, either of them, they aren't going to win without beating Irvin.
So, by God, they ought to start nipping him a bit.
Or as grandstanding as, you know, his postulating and all this and that and the other thing.
What's he done for North Carolina?
Yeah, that's right.
Why isn't he paying attention to the problem in the state?
Right.
Well, get on that first thing in the morning, sir.
Right.
You'll have a lot of fun with it.
I'll do it, Mr. President.
Okay.
Thank you, sir.