On March 21, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 7:53 pm to 8:24 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 037-205 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Oh.
Mr. Colson is on the line.
Oh.
Good evening, Mr. President.
Well, how's your business coming now?
Well, we're working hard at it, sir.
Right.
We're fighting them off.
Fighting them off at the doors.
You mean their clients?
Plenty of that.
It's just my job is getting my own firm organized.
Right.
Finding enough hours in the day to do the things I want to do.
Right.
Right.
Right.
It's coming very well.
Right.
I had an interesting visit last night with...
Howard Baker's administrative assistant.
He claims, and I don't know how much truth there is in it, that Howard really wants to work with us totally, and that he's just a little frustrated.
He said don't pay any attention to what he's been saying on the floor, or a couple of times that he said things that he said were unfortunate.
He said Howard regrets them, but...
When it appeared that he was breaking with the president, he said he wasn't.
What he's trying to do is to protect his credibility with Irvin so that he can negotiate with him.
And he said he really just wants, he doesn't have the votes, and he said he just wants to be able to hold Irvin at bay and be able to control him.
And he said, therefore, he's trying, he, Howard, is trying to act like one of the Senate club so that he doesn't destroy his relationship with Irvin.
Irvin, he did say that Howard felt frustrated because he said he wants to be the defender of the president, just looking at my notes, but at the same time appearing to be disinterested.
But he said he hasn't really been able to get a channel of communication where he can work with Irvin yet.
I want to talk to Haldeman about this because... No, he has to work with the clientese.
That's where he has to work.
Well, he's working with the clientese, but he's not getting anything.
No, and he doesn't think that's a good idea.
He said that's...
got certain dangers inherent in it to work with the Attorney General.
He'd kind of like more political counseling, and I can do some of it, I think, through my sources, but through George Webster.
But he can't do it at the White House.
You can see that.
No, it can't be the White House.
He's got to be able to deny that totally, you see.
Whether even George Bush...
might be able to help.
I don't know.
I've been trying to think today how the hell to do it.
He just says he wants to... Why the hell doesn't he use Mitchell?
Well, Mitchell will be a principal in the thing, which is what he thinks.
Well, I won't burden you with it, but the only important thing, I think, Mr. President, is that he said the only reservation that Howard wants to help
go all the way and work with us and wants to defend you and wants to defend the Republican Party.
He took this assignment on because he felt that otherwise it might fall into someone's hands in the Senate who was not interested.
Is he, Sheriff Bernard Royce, aware of the fact that Urban's rather partisan?
Oh, he thinks Ervin is bordering on senility, and I'm quoting, of course, secondhand through Hugh Branson, but he said he thinks that Ervin is bordering on senility as a total partisan.
That's for sure.
A phony.
I mean, Hugh describes him as a phony, and he says that Howard doesn't have any respect for him.
I mean, he has respect for him, but he's not a constitutional lawyer that he makes himself out to be.
And he said that...
He said, Howard's under no illusions about Sam Rubin.
He said, how about the other counsel?
He's not senile.
That's the problem there, isn't it?
Yeah.
He's a sharp cookie, according to Branson, and not at all senile, and sees an opportunity to make a real name for himself.
Basically, the point that Branson, the reason he asked to see me, and this was, well, George Webster was kind of the intermediary, but the reason he asked to see me was he said, Jesus, somebody
sit down with us and just go through the thing and coordinate with us.
He said, for example, the president put out his statement on executive privilege.
We got caught by surprise.
We weren't prepared.
We didn't know he was going to do it.
Oh, yes, he did.
I told him before.
But anyway, that's probably the typical little bit of an apology session.
I think he wanted to be sure that we knew that
that he wasn't getting off the reservation.
Well, that's clear.
One thing last night was very clear.
He wanted me to be sure, and he asked me whether I was in communication with you or with all of them, and I said yes.
And he said, well, please, be sure they know we're not getting off the reservation.
We want to help.
We just feel like we need a channel of information.
We need to know the facts, and we need somebody to take us into confidence once in a while and keep us clued in.
Right.
And give us all the facts.
We don't know how to handle them.
We'll defend you if, you know, we'll defend the administration if we know what the facts are.
What's your judgment as to what ought to be done now?
You know, there's various discussions about whether there should be a report made or something, you know, a...
to the president or just hunker down and take it or what have you and so forth and so on.
Well, my feeling, Mr. President, thus far, frankly, is that you're not being hurt by this at all, that this is a Washington story still, and that sounds incredible after all this time and all this publicity, but I'm convinced that's a...
But you see, looking to the future, I suppose, Chuck, what some of our fellows that are, you know, like...
has really done a superb job here keeping all the fires out.
He's concerned about what bubbles out.
Yeah, well, Dean has a problem also, Mr. President.
I didn't want to say this to you Monday night when you mentioned to me that Dean has done a spectacular job.
I don't think anybody could do as good a job as John has done.
The problem I foresee in this is not what has happened so far.
I think the mystery of the Watergate
i don't know whether somebody's gonna somebody will fire up in the committee for the reelection they're going to get named or not but to me that is a very great consequence to the country if it happens the thing that worries me is the possibility of somebody uh charging an obstruction of justice problem in other words the subsequent actions would worry me more than anything and that's where john has
He's done all the things that have to be done, but that makes him a little more of a participant than you would like if he's the fellow that has to coordinate it all.
He's got the best privilege.
He's got a double privilege, but the subsequent developments would be the only ones that would worry me.
I don't worry about that.
how the Watergate came about.
I think that's been so milked out that if they get someone else to get them, that's all.
And if it's testimony, it'll get so goddamn confused.
It's maybe the stuff afterwards that... You mean seeing with regard to the defendants?
Of course, that was all...
Yeah, that's that area.
I mean, that general area.
Of course, that was...
I don't want to burden you with anything.
That had to be done.
Hell, yeah.
No, no second thoughts.
That's not the point.
The point is that just it limits the ability now to stand up to it.
I don't know.
I've thought of several things.
I've thought of trying to get a special counsel in to you that could... We could appoint, you mean?
Yeah, that you could appoint.
Not as an investigator, but as a counsel.
just to handle a goddamn thing on the grounds that you don't want the Justice Department handling it, you don't want the regular White House staff handling it.
They've got their work to do.
And you appoint a man of particularly impeccable credentials, a man known for his integrity, standing before the bar, that kind of thing, but a guy who's also totally loyal, or just a damn good lawyer who would be professional at that.
That's one thought that I've been playing with the last couple of years.
We have an advantage, you see, of getting all of the people who have been in one way or another participating out of the damn thing so that you've got a guy who, frankly, can deal with anybody he has to deal with.
Yeah.
I think, of course, you've got the problem of what the judge is going to say Friday.
I suppose he's going to have quite an orang, isn't he?
Oh, yeah.
He's pretty tough.
And then, of course, you've got the problem of...
the defendants, particularly Hunt, what's he going to do?
That's always a problem.
Of course, he's got problems if he does anything.
You know, there he's... Oh, that's right.
You know what I mean?
Yes, sir.
My own opinion of that is that he just will hang in where he is.
I mean, I think he... At the moment, I think that's in as good shape as it can be.
You never know.
A lot of pressures on them, right?
Sure are.
A hell of a lot.
But no, I think what you'll get is another harangue from the judge.
Probably calling, don't you imagine, for the grand jury to go back in the session and call everybody again?
Yes, sir.
The U.S. attorney has already indicated he was going to do that.
The judge is bound to use that.
That doesn't trouble me too much.
I don't have any problem, frankly.
I'd a hell of a lot rather have everybody in the White House staff and former White House staff members called before a grand jury than I would before the committee, wouldn't you?
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
There's nothing, as a matter of fact, well, everybody in the White House staff, former White House staff, have been before the grand jury.
Well, except for, of course, Alderman Ehrlichman.
That's right, I guess.
I see you gave that position.
But, of course, Ehrlichman talked to the FBI.
But that's the part that they might want to get into, which I would understand.
Sure.
Well, that wouldn't bother me.
Of course, you do have privilege questions.
I mean, the question of where and when you waive privilege.
That would be very difficult to waive it, to claim it for a grand jury, I think.
That's right.
For a grand jury, you've got to...
I don't think you can really waive it.
I don't think you can really stand with it.
I mean, before a Senate committee, it's one thing.
For a grand jury, I think something else.
That's right.
In a civil proceeding, in open court, or in a deposition in a civil proceeding, or in a congressional hearing, you've got one set of rules.
In a grand jury, where there's secrecy,
That's a different matter.
That's a different matter.
That's right.
That's right.
There'd be still some areas that would be privileged, but I think the privilege would be much narrower.
Right.
Obviously some areas that would be national security areas that might be considered.
I don't think really at this point in time, Mr. President, that it was interesting.
Branson said they had no reaction from Tennessee, none whatsoever.
And I just don't think another harangue by the judge or...
Well, I think the harangue will probably have to stay.
It'll get another television story, and it'll get a little more...
It'll hit the network.
It's like ITT.
It sort of builds up over a period of time.
That's right.
But they keep hitting at it because they just don't have anything else to use.
That's quite true.
They can make the mystery out of it, and that's the damnable part.
That's why some kind of a...
Even a bland statement is probably worthwhile.
I don't know how we can get it out, but maybe we have to at one point.
Well, if there's anything more to be said, I almost think you're in the right posture right at the moment.
The only question that I have in my mind, Mr. President, is whether it would be an advantage to you to have someone who has no
background in this area at all.
He has had no involvement.
He's been on the outside.
I brought in simply to coordinate it all with a highly respected guy who could sort of...
He's got an ideal guy before us if he hadn't been involved, huh?
Yeah, he's badly tarred.
He would be very good.
He's what you need.
Yeah, that's right.
Another fellow that I thought about is Rankin.
He's
highly respected.
He, uh... Walsh?
Yeah.
Yeah, Wolf?