{"conversationCode":"038-062","tapeNumber":38,"conversationNumber":62,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-038-062","startDateTime":"1973-04-16T03:16:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-04-16T04:15:00.000Z","startDate":"15-Apr-1973","startTime":"10:16 PM","endDate":"15-Apr-1973","endTime":"11:15 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Ehrlichman, John D.; Gray, L[ouis] Patrick, III;","description":"On April 15, 1973, John D. Ehrlichman and L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:16 pm and 11:15 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-062 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 38-62\n\nDate: April 15, 1973\nTime: Unknown between 10:16 pm and 11:15 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nJohn D. Ehrlichman talked with L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III.\n\n     Watergate\n          -Envelope to Gray\n               -Need for truth\n               -Contents\n                     -E. Howard Hunt, Jr.\n               -Information from John W. Dean, III\n               -Collateral evidence\n\f                                               -36-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM","filename":["038-062.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Ehrlichman, John D.","Gray, L[ouis] Patrick, III"],"prevCode":"038-061","nextCode":"038-063","transcript":[{"start":0.49,"end":1.13,"text":"Hello."},{"start":1.15,"end":1.57,"text":"Mr. Gray."},{"start":1.59,"end":2.47,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":2.49,"end":3.31,"text":"John Ehrlichman again."},{"start":4.09,"end":6.38,"text":"I've been giving some thought to our conversation."},{"start":7.58,"end":14.91,"text":"I just don't think there's any way, anything but level on this if you're asked."},{"start":17.39,"end":19.9,"text":"There's just too many collateral facts."},{"start":20.94,"end":30.01,"text":"If it's the fact that that was just full of stuff irrelevant to any business of the Bureau, why, you know, that's reason enough."},{"start":30.39,"end":32.9,"text":"Well, that's what I was told, but I didn't look at it, Jeff."},{"start":32.92,"end":33.12,"text":"Right."},{"start":35.54,"end":43.95,"text":"I just don't see how you get yourself crossways in the testimony in this thing for fear you get caught up in it."},{"start":47.06,"end":50.2,"text":"I just encourage you to just state the facts."},{"start":50.88,"end":62.81,"text":"I stated, uh, straight away, you know, that he, uh, at no time did he indicate that this was from Hunt's material."},{"start":62.83,"end":62.93,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":62.95,"end":63.17,"text":"Oh, I see."},{"start":63.19,"end":63.47,"text":"I see."},{"start":63.49,"end":64.63,"text":"He didn't know where it came from."},{"start":64.65,"end":64.89,"text":"No."},{"start":65.39,"end":67.16,"text":"I see."},{"start":67.18,"end":67.28,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":67.3,"end":71.5,"text":"Uh, just that it was papers that he wanted to turn over to you."},{"start":71.52,"end":71.74,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":72.1,"end":72.46,"text":"I see."},{"start":73.53,"end":73.62,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":73.64,"end":79.15,"text":"That they were purely, uh, political things and had no bearing on the subject at all."},{"start":79.17,"end":79.31,"text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":80.66,"end":83.82,"text":"I think if I were you, I'd stick to that."},{"start":85.79,"end":94.2,"text":"I obviously can't tell you what to do, but I was a little troubled by our conversation, and I didn't pick it up fast enough when you said that."},{"start":94.32,"end":96.26,"text":"So I just thought I'd better call you back."},{"start":96.5,"end":102.27,"text":"Yeah, I don't know all the other collaterals there are that are involved in this."},{"start":102.29,"end":107.38,"text":"Well, it's moving so fast, I'm frank to confess I don't either."},{"start":108.4,"end":111.42,"text":"hesitate to get crosswise on something of that kind."},{"start":113.17,"end":113.97,"text":"I'll talk to you later."},{"start":114.11,"end":114.41,"text":"Okay."},{"start":114.45,"end":121.69,"text":"Bye, Pat."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"John D. Ehrlichman calls Acting FBI Director L. Patrick Gray III to advise him on how to handle testimony regarding a sensitive envelope containing E. Howard Hunt’s materials. Ehrlichman encourages Gray to maintain that the documents were irrelevant political papers, cautioning him against providing inconsistent testimony that could expose them to broader legal risks. The discussion underscores the escalating pressure and confusion surrounding the White House's efforts to manage the fallout from the Watergate investigation.","topics":["Watergate scandal","E. Howard Hunt","L. Patrick Gray III","Obstruction of justice","FBI testimony","Cover-up"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T05:33:20.622Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate-scandal","e-howard-hunt","l-patrick-gray-iii","obstruction-of-justice","fbi-testimony","cover-up"],"audioDurationSec":122,"audioFiles":[{"file":"038-062.mp3","bytes":3895296,"durationSec":121.64,"bitrate":256185,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:02.070Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:42.441Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/038-062.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-062","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/38/conversation-038-062","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}