On April 16, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry E. Petersen talked on the telephone from 8:58 pm to 9:14 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-082 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Did you get out with your kids?
Oh, sure.
They're here, and we got together with them.
Oh, that's good.
They all just hollered, the president's calling, right on the nose at 9 o'clock.
Well, I wanted to get you in bed earlier tonight than last night, right?
And I want to get to bed, too.
Let me say first that I just want to know if there are any developments I should know about, and second, that, of course, if you know anything you tell me, I should have
I think I told you earlier, will not be passed on.
I understand, Mr. President.
Because I know the rules of the grand jury.
Now, LaRue was in, and LaRue was rather pitiful.
He came down with O'Brien and said he didn't want private counsel is all he was going to do.
He told John Mitchell that it was all over.
He said he told John Mitchell that?
Yes.
He, LaRue, admits to participating in the subordination and obstruction of justice.
He admits to being present, as Dean says he was, at the third meeting, budget meeting, but... Who was present at that meeting?
Me and Mitchell.
He and Mitchell alone?
And he says... LaRue and Mitchell, I didn't...
meeting I seem to have missed.
Dean was not there at that meeting.
Dean tells us about it.
Now, I'm not quite certain whether Dean was present or not.
The meeting was down in Florida.
Oh, some meeting.
Oh, yeah, I heard about that meeting, but I don't think you told me about that.
He's reluctant to say at this point.
Mitchell specifically authorized the budget for the electronic keys dropping at that point, but I think he's going to come around.
John Mitchell.
He admits that it could not have been activated without Mitchell's approval, however.
O'Brien, they didn't get to.
Called back around 5 o'clock and said he was having difficulty getting a lawyer.
He finally got a lawyer in Cole's role partner.
And the United States Attorney's Office took issue with it and threatened to go to the judge on a conflict.
Then he got another lawyer.
He'll be back tomorrow.
All he got to do today was LaRue.
He said that he had told Mitchell that it was all over.
Just recently.
Just recently.
Today, yesterday.
I see.
He was thrown in the sponge.
I get it.
We talked earlier today about Ehrlichman.
Now, a little additional detail on that.
He confessed to Dean on June 19th.
June 19th.
Dean then told Ehrlichman.
That he confessed that he was present in the Watergate.
Then you also asked about Coulson.
Coulson and Dean were together with Ehrlichman when
been advised about the hunt to get out of town, and thereafter— Colson was there.
Colson was there, so he's going to be in the grand jury.
With respect to Holden, another matter.
In connection with the payment money after— Yeah.
Uh, June 17th.
Mitchell told Dane to activate Kalmbach.
Uh, Dane felt like he didn't have that authority and he went to Haldeman.
Haldeman gave him the authority.
He then got in touch with Kalmbach to arrange for money.
The details of which we really don't know as yet.
Right.
So Kalmbach is also a grand jury witness.
And I think those are the only additional developments.
Right.
What is your situation with regard to the negotiation with Dean and your negotiation with regard to the agreement by McGruder?
Trying to get the timing, you see, with regard to whatever I say.
McGruder's lawyers are still waiting to get back to us.
They're very much concerned about Judge Sirica.
And they're not so much concerned about Irwin.
You know, their immediate concern is Sirica, and they want that ironed out first.
Well, they want ironed out.
He won't go to jail before the rest of them.
Oh, I see.
If he confesses.
That's right.
That's, you know, pending a...
Which you've got to have, I suppose.
Titus knows him better than any of us.
Sure.
Probably Titus will handle that aspect of it.
But that's got to be very simply done.
He's got to blast us all publicly.
Well, it's Sirica, right?
And then, you know, then we'll pick up that Erwin here.
Doesn't seem to be the major issue, though.
Probably I can see that the main thing is the record he's concerned about.
That's right.
Sure, because the urban thing will become moot, in my opinion.
Now, the other concern we have on that issue is, you know, how we charge.
How we charge?
In terms of the prejudicial publicity and naming the individuals.
One of the things that concerns us is we don't feel like we ought to put
and Ehrlichman in there as unindicted co-conspirators at this point, but we're afraid not to.
If we don't and it gets out, you know, it's going to look like a big cover-up again.
So we're trying to wrestle our way through that.
along with the others, huh?
Well, we'd name them at this point all these unindicted co-conspirators.
But anybody who's named as an unindicted co-conspirator in that indictment is in all probability going to be indicted later on.
So you've got to make a determination as to whether...
The secondary issue is, of course, that we're going to have enough corroboration to make those statements.
And... That statement would be made, as I understand it, if you were telling me if...
In court.
made an open court and then you would make a statement that the others, you'd name them at that time?
Well, no, we wouldn't do it in those terms.
We'd simply do it in terms of stating the facts to the court.
That would be done publicly.
Would you name Mitchell then, too?
Well, we'd have to.
The problem is...
It would all be done in open court.
That's right.
Once we do that, or even if we don't, Sirica's habit and custom, and he's certainly going to do it in this case,
interrogate the defendant himself.
Right.
The defendant who pleads guilty.
That's right.
If he interrogates McGruder and brings out the Ehrlichman-Haldeman facts, and we haven't mentioned them or included them in the conspiracy charge, then we're all going to have a black eye.
I get your point.
So these are the things we're trying to work out.
You've got quite a plate full.
You probably won't get it tomorrow then, will you?
I doubt it.
I doubt it.
What about Dean?
In his case, you're still negotiating, huh?
Well, we're still tying down facts with him.
We want to get as much as we can.
Basically, with him, the point is you've got to get enough facts to justify giving him immunity, right?
To make the decision, yes, sir.
Depends on how much he tells you.
Is that it?
Correct.
And how much of it more than that?
How much of a weakened corroboree?
Can't corroborate enough, then he doesn't get off, is that it?
Well, if we can't corroborate it, that's right.
We can't very well immunize him and put him head-to-head against the witness who's going to beat him.
I see.
I guess people are playing it pretty tough with you then.
Yes, sir.
I guess we do that too, I suppose.
For them to do that.
Let me see if I get the facts in.
You'll hear Sean tomorrow, perhaps.
Yes, we expect he'll be in, come in with his lawyer again.
Our second point is that, let me see, about the 19th, you'd say Dean says that, no?
On the 19th, did he confess to Dean?
Dean says that.
Dean says that.
And that he told Ehrlichman?
That he told Ehrlichman.
That's a new fact, isn't it?
Yes, sir.
And that's a terribly important fact, I think.
There's no disclosure made by either one of them.
I'm not quite sure when Dean said it.
You see, the point is Dean didn't tell me that.
That's the thing that discourages me.
Well, Mr. President, you have to remember that we're debriefing him on what's transpired over the last 18 months.
It's very difficult, you know, to get it all in.
I know.
I'm not talking about you, but I'm talking about what he didn't tell me, you see.
Yeah.
key fact that he should have told me, isn't it?
Yes.
And let's see, let's see, that's the 19th.
And on the hold of the thing, what did you have there again?
So I get that in my mind.
Let me go back over my notes, Phil.
The principal thing that I wanted to point out to you on Haldeman is that Dean went to Haldeman to get authority to go to Comback.
Yes, yes, yes, that was it.
That's when Mitchell, Mitchell told him to go to Haldeman.
Mitchell told Dean simply to activate Comback to handle the money.
I see.
Dean then went to Haldeman to get authority to Comback, to contact him.
And there after Comback took care of the money.
details on the $350,000, which you knew about.
I knew about the fund.
I don't know how it all went.
That is related to us as money over which the Hold'em and Exercise Control, that money was delivered to LaRue to be used for payments.
I think Hold'em
say that's true.
I think he would.
I mean, I don't know, but we'll see.
You should ask, I guess, Comhawk.
Well, the point of it is it went to LaRue instead of going to the committee directly.
And Haldeman and LaRue apparently did not give a receipt.
Haldeman had requested it.
was a member of the, was at least the member of the finance committee.
I think that was the point that I called him about.
I said, where did this money go to?
And he said, it went to LaRue.
LaRue was a member of the committee or something like that, of Stanza's committee.
I don't know what that is.
Is that correct or do you know that?
I don't know that.
All I know is it worked for John Mitchell.
Went to Mitchell?
I say all I know is LaRue worked for Mitchell.
I think he, yeah, I think he worked for,
the finance committee, but I don't know.
You ought to check that out.
I will.
Okay.
Then the main thing I need, of course, is on the—well, before you—you're not going to have anything tomorrow and put them in court, so I don't— I don't think so.
Tomorrow, just continue to develop the evidence.
Yes, sir.
I think, therefore, no statement would be in order at the present time.
We—against one today, it just didn't seem to be—
I thought it would—I just had to make my own determination.
I thought it would jeopardize possibly the prosecution, you know.
Who knows?
That's right.
I mean, we don't want to say anything until there's been a big break in the case and everybody starts— There's only one thing, Mr. President, that you ought to know.
Yeah?
I had a call from Ron Ostroes of L.A. Times, who's a decent man and a reasonably good acquaintance.
I think a reporter of character, if there are any.
And he said that they had reports out of the White House that, let me use his words, that two or three people over the White House were going to be thrown to the wolves.
And is there anything to it?
And I said, there's not anything I can tell you about it.
I just can't say anything about it one way or another.
I don't want to confirm it.
I don't want to deny it.
So they'll probably write a story on that.
I don't know.
But I mention it only because it's beginning to percolate.
It must have come from where the U.S. Attorney's Office, you think?
I doubt it because I had not told them.
They made their own conjecture.
U.S. Attorney.
Well, but they were thinking in terms of the Haldeman-Erichman thing, indeed, I suppose.
Well, you know, I don't know what he was thinking about.
Where does the Coulson thing come in again?
I've got to get that one.
Where does what thing come in?
Coulson.
Coulson was present when Ehrlichman issued the order for Hunt to get out of the country.
I get it.
Fine.
Okay.
So you call him, too.
Yes, sir.
Right.
Okay, while the van comes up, call me even if it's the middle of the night, okay?
I will indeed.
Thank you.
All right, Mr. Anderson.
Thank you.