Nixon White House Tapes ›Tape 38 › Conversation 038-086

Nixon phone call with Ehrlichman on Watergate scandal and Henry E. Petersen

Tuesday, April 17, 1973 · 2:39 PM–2:40 PM ET · White House Telephone ·3 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Ehrlichman, John D.Conversation038-086 onTape 38StartTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 2:39 PMEndTuesday, April 17, 1973 at 2:40 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 038-086 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Ehrlichman coordinated the talking points for Nixon’s upcoming meeting with Assistant Attorney General Henry E. Petersen regarding the Watergate investigation. They established a firm policy against granting immunity to top White House officials, such as John Dean and Charles Colson, while remaining open to immunity for lower-level staffers like Gordon Strachan. Furthermore, they clarified personnel policies regarding suspensions upon indictment and resignations upon conviction, while also planning to confront Petersen about the political damage caused by ongoing leaks from the grand jury.

Audio

Download MP3 · 4.8 MB

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) ·JSON data · Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).

John.
Yes, sir.
I don't want to interrupt your statement, but I just wanted to be sure to check that twice you want with Peterson to be in just five to ten minutes.
So, one, no immunity.
However, I would say for any top, any of the top three,
In other words, so that I can, it sort of appears that if you want to give a distraught, that's okay.
Don't you think that's a good line?
I think that's good.
All right.
Any of the people in the... Yeah.
Yeah.
The four points, as I wrote them down, were to inform him that you were making a statement.
And that I've done.
Your policy with regard to suspension and firing, which is charges or indictment.
Indictment for suspension and firing for conviction, which will be in the statement that I'm drafting.
Okay.
You'll tell the press that.
Right.
Then privately, to him, your policy with regard to immunity for top people.
Yeah.
I wouldn't limit it to three.
I'd say any top person, like Dean or up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
But then I'll say, as far as a fellow like Strawn, that's fine.
Do what you want.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that strengthens the position.
Coulson, Dean, anybody of that kind, no dice.
Please mention these four to me.
I'll just say them.
And then forth the leaks out of the Grand Jury.
And we'll report it to him, whether he doesn't think that later exposure would prejudice the whole investigation and whether or not he shouldn't withdraw at an appropriate time.
Charges or replacement can be obtained.
Charges that I'm going to follow a policy of accepting resignations and charges or indictment.
Is that it?
No, of a suspension on indictment and a resignation on conviction.
Oh, of course.
That's right.
Everybody would know that.
Suspension on indictment and resignation on refusing to cooperate.
Right.
Or conviction.
Yeah.
Right.
And what about charges?
I mean, remember, we had that gray area.
Well, there again, you'll have to reserve the right, depending on the seriousness of the charge.
And I'll say, if there's a serious corroborated charge, then you want him to bring it to you, and you'll reserve judgment on the individual case.
Okay, good.

NARA Description

On April 17, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 2:39 pm to 2:40 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-086 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 38-86

Date: April 17, 1973
Time: 2:39 pm - 2:40 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with John D. Ehrlichman.

[See also Conversation No. 898-19]

[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was prepared Richard Nixon’s Special
White House Counsel for Watergate Matters and submitted to the Committee on the Judiciary of
the House of Representatives. This transcript can be found in Submission of Recorded
                                             -48-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      (rev. January-2011)

                                                              Conversation No. 38-86 (cont’d)

Presidential Conversations (SRPC), pages 1057-1059 (1-3). Please refer to the logging below.]

     Watergate
          -President’s forthcoming meeting with Henry E. Petersen
          -Immunity
                -Gordon C. Strachan
          -President’s forthcoming statement
                -Ehrlichman’s draft
                -John W. Dean, III
                -Charles W. Colson
          -Resignations
          -Immunity for White House staff
          -Leaks from grand jury
          -Suspension

Also recorded on April 17, 1973

  • 898-013 2:20 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:20 pm and 2:30 pm.
  • 898-014 2:20 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:20 pm and 2:30 pm.
  • 898-015 2:20 PM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:20 pm and 2:30 pm.
  • 898-016 2:20 PM · 23 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:20 pm and 2:30 pm.
  • 038-085 2:30 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 2:30 pm and 2:39 pm.
  • 898-019 2:39 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:39 pm to 2:40 pm.
  • 898-020 2:40 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 2:40 pm and 2:46 pm.
  • 898-021 2:46 PM · 1 hr 8 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry E. Petersen, and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:46 pm to 3:49 pm.

All 53 conversations from April 17, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 038-086, April 17, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-086 (accessed September 18, 2026).