Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 038-092
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 1973 at 11:45 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.
Recording device: White House Telephone
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-092

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Hello?
[0:01] Hello, Mr. President.
[0:03] Did you stay for the entertainment?
[0:04] Yes, this was moving.
[0:06] One of the most moving things I've heard.
[0:09] You know, Frank's voice is gone, as he told me before he came.
[0:13] But, by gosh, you know, the emotion in the room was just unbelievable.
[0:20] I think some of the people were crying.
[0:21] Unbelievable.
[0:22] Did you feel that way?
[0:23] Oh, yes.
[0:24] And also the tremendous dignity with which he did it.
[0:28] The way he spoke of you and of the presidency was really a great evening.
[0:35] No, you said it very well.
[0:37] It is not something that one can have such an evening.
[0:41] Right.
[0:43] No, but Hebert was sitting in front of me, and he was, in fact, crying at the end.
[0:48] Who?
[0:49] Hebert?
[0:49] Hebert, yeah.
[0:52] And Castori was sitting next to me, and he's just beside himself.
[0:56] Wait.
[0:57] Yeah.
[0:59] Well, rather a hard day, wasn't it?
[1:04] Well, it was hard for you.
[1:09] I didn't know you had made the statement you did until the evening, when I think of the discipline with which you conducted the meeting in the morning.
[1:20] And then going through the evening.
[1:22] And then going through the evening.
[1:28] I can't look at it the attached way I really should.
[1:31] Well, these people, God damn it, they're guilty.
[1:33] Throw them out.
[1:35] Go on.
[1:36] But just the personal things are, God damn.
[1:41] I think of these good men.
[1:45] That's right.
[1:48] Who wanted to do the right thing.
[1:51] And it's going to splash a lot of them.
[1:54] And anyway.
[1:57] Well, I think the way you have positioned it now, it's the right way to do it.
[2:04] Because Carmet, as you know, was having the idea that I should get up and announce that I'd fired Haldeman, Ehrlichman, and Dean.
[2:14] And without waiting until they get up and name the real culprit is Mitchell, of course.
[2:21] He's in charge of the whole goddamn thing, and John Mitchell.
[2:24] We should step up like a man and say, look, I was in charge.
[2:26] I take the responsibility, period.
[2:28] Exactly.
[2:30] All the more so is doing the opposite won't help him any.
[2:33] Nope.
[2:34] They're going to get him.
[2:40] No, I think the fire would make him the villain.
[2:45] Well, in the end, he would probably have to go, Henry.
[2:49] They're going to.
[2:54] Well, if that's the case, then he should get out before.
[2:59] Well, but not until I have absolute evidence.
[3:05] I'm not going to fire a guy on the basis of a charge made by Dean, who basically is trying to save his ass and get immunity, you see.
[3:15] That's why I had that phrase in there that no immunity should be granted to a top person.
[3:21] Yeah, he has no right to do that.
[3:23] No, that's absolutely...
[3:24] I mean, I think that is outrageous.
[3:28] No, I...
[3:30] I just have no way...
[3:31] I have no good feel for where...
[3:34] I think you would not have improved the situation if you had suddenly, without any preparation, turned on all your associates.
[3:50] Yep.
[3:50] And... Well, we have...
[3:51] I think two or three hard months ahead.
[3:54] It's going to be real rough.
[3:55] Well, the major thing now, Mr. President, if I may say so, is to protect the presidency and your authority.
[4:02] It's going to be hard because some of these people will even piss on the president if they think it'll help them.
[4:13] Well, it's pretty hard.
[4:14] I'm the only one, frankly, of the whole bunch who really did no goddamn thing
[4:21] you know, about it until, until March when I finally—Dean came in and said, well, here's where it is, which he should have done months ago.
[4:35] Well, they were in over their head and they tried to, instead of stepping back and assessing where they were, got in deeper and deeper.
[4:44] That's right.
[4:45] But I think the absolute, I mean,
[4:50] Well, if we can, if we can, we will.
[4:53] But if we don't, what the hell?
[4:55] If we can, Mr. President, maybe we will.
[4:57] I haven't even considered the possibility of, frankly, just throwing myself in the sword.
[5:04] No, I think I'm going to take it.
[5:06] What the hell?
[5:08] That is out of the question, with all due respect, Mr. President.
[5:11] That cannot be considered.
[5:13] Well, the personality, what it would do to the presidency and to the historical injustice of it.
[5:20] Why should you do it?
[5:22] And what good would it do?
[5:25] Whom would it help?
[5:29] It wouldn't help the country.
[5:31] It wouldn't help any individual involved.
[5:35] But with all respect, I don't think a president has a right to sacrifice himself for an individual.
[5:46] Well, I've had a few tough meetings, you know.
[5:54] I've had dinners the night after Cambodia.
[5:59] I had one after the main thing.
[6:02] We had a dinner and they were tough.
[6:04] But boy, I'm telling you tonight, that was a hard one for me to get through.
[6:09] I don't think the audience sensed it, but no one sensed it.
[6:13] No one.
[6:16] In fact, I didn't know you had made a statement, so one of my dinner partners said, isn't it astonishing how the president is behaving, considering what he's done today?
[6:26] I said, yes, he's had a tough meeting in the morning, but he does that all the time.
[6:31] She said, no, the statement was with his guest.
[6:37] So it was an astonishing performance.
[6:42] But I think, Mr. President, it can be...
[6:45] Well, to the extent you can, and you're talking to people, you may have to mention really very strongly these personal things, if it'll help.
[6:55] I don't know.
[6:55] It may not help.
[6:56] No, no, it will help, Mr. President.
[6:59] And if any stuff gets out, then there has to be room for surgery, or as the stuff gets out, it will help.
[7:10] I hope the acts will fall.
[7:18] And I'm sure that Bob wouldn't want that.
[7:30] Oh, no, Bob and John both are willing to throw themselves in the sword, although when they do, they're going to fight like hell.
[7:38] But one of them ought to stay.
[7:42] I would hope so.
[7:45] But I'm afraid it can't be all of them.
[7:47] I'm afraid the only one that possibly could be saved would be Erlich Mann.
[7:50] That's tough, too.
[7:57] But I think you've positioned it correctly, that as evidence comes out, for you to fire them all now would look like panic.
[8:09] Well, that's the Garment line.
[8:10] What do you think of his line?
[8:12] Well, Garment wants you to fire all the mundane.
[8:17] I don't know whether they want you to fire Ehrlichman, too.
[8:25] Yep.
[8:25] Well, it's a possibility.
[8:30] I don't know what the evidence is, but— The evidence is, at this time, charges made that have not been corroborated yet.
[8:38] But there— Well, if there's a good chance that they'll have to go as a result of what
[8:46] Then I don't think you should fire them.
[8:48] They ought to resign on the ground.
[8:51] That their usefulness is impaired.
[8:54] That they have to be above sitting in like Caesar's wife.
[9:04] We'll think about it to our best.
[9:07] But I think it does you credit to have that understood as you have.
[9:14] And in any event, today you were right to go no further.
[9:26] Well, we'll do the Italian again tomorrow.
[9:29] Right, Mr. President.
[9:34] And this...
[9:41] I'd like to move in the morning, if you will.
[9:44] Rather than me reading the stuff from the Soviet, I'm going to have you read it.
[9:49] I'll read it.
[9:50] I don't really want to go, you know, you can say now, we've been in communication and here's what's happened and God damn it, we've done.
[9:59] And if these people start to whine around, I'm going to be very tough.
[10:03] I'm going to say, fine.
[10:04] I said, now here's what you're going to do.
[10:07] There'll be no Soviet summit.
[10:09] There'll be no arms control.
[10:12] There'll be no...
[10:14] I mean, this great initiative will be destroyed.
[10:17] And if the Jewish community wants to take that responsibility, I am going to take them on.
[10:23] Believe me, there's just one time I'll do it, Henry.
[10:25] I think you should.
[10:26] But they won't come in until Thursday, Mr. President.
[10:29] Tomorrow is the Senate people.
[10:32] Tomorrow is still a Jewish holiday, so they won't come in until Thursday, the Jewish group.
[10:40] Be very strong and say,
[10:44] It's like getting out in Downey.
[10:47] It's like all these other things that I got.
[10:49] We can do it working within.
[10:51] If they don't want to work within, the door will slam bang down.
[10:55] And Henry, nobody's going to get out, believe me.
[10:58] No question.
[10:59] No question.
[11:00] And they've got to understand that.
[11:02] Not a question.
[11:03] And not only that, when they don't get out, this will be the key point.
[11:07] The Russians are tough.
[11:11] They've gone further than they would ever want to go.
[11:14] for their backing down.
[11:16] And if I were they, I wouldn't come to the goddamn summit.
[11:21] No.
[11:21] Not if they know it's going to fail.
[11:23] Not if they know the MSN is going to fail.
[11:26] Yep.
[11:30] Tomorrow, perhaps, with the senators, I would give them a chance to think about it.
[11:38] Well, don't you get discouraged.
[11:40] Mr. President, I'm not discouraged.
[11:42] You do your job.
[11:43] of us have got to stick around, try to hold the goddamn fort.
[11:47] You have saved this country, Mr. President.
[11:50] The history books will show that when they don't—when no one will know what Watergate means.
[11:58] And maybe although our enemies, you know, will say, well, this proves that we were obstructed just as we—oh, well.
[12:13] Oh, and in six months, no one will know it anymore.
[12:17] It's a human tragedy for Haldeman and Dean and a few of those fellows.
[12:24] Haldeman is a big man, Mr. President, and he'll... Dean is the real... Oh, that's really got to be the loose cannon because he's trying to save his ass.
[12:38] That's why I had in that little phrase that no immunity should be granted to any top person.
[12:44] And that's going to burn his ass because then he'll thrash out about everything you can imagine.
[12:54] Although Ziegler made an interesting point.
[12:56] He has goddamn little credibility.
[12:58] After all, he was making the report.
[13:01] He was the one that said there was no involvement.
[13:03] That's what we relied on.
[13:08] February or March of this year before he finally came in and said, well, here it is.
[13:13] That's right.
[13:14] It's a little damn late, isn't it?
[13:15] I just fired him as soon as it comes out and let him scream from the outside.
[13:29] I guess so.
[13:30] We will when the time comes.
[13:35] Well, you know, nobody really will know that
[13:38] what they put a president through on a thing like this.
[13:41] Well, it's inhuman, Mr. President.
[13:45] These bastards know damn well that you couldn't have known about it, that if one considers all the things you had to go through, you couldn't be a police judge, too.
[13:55] You're running the government.
[13:56] You're doing all the negotiating.
[13:59] You're carrying a bigger load than any president has.
[14:03] top of it they want you to record we were going to russia and china and ending the war and negotiating i was even thinking about the goddamn campaign you know i had nothing to do with the damn campaign as you know of course that's the problem that's the tragedy i wish to christ maybe that i had but if i'd been spending time in the campaign maybe i wouldn't pull it off if you can't rely on your own people to tell you the facts then it's then it's not
[14:30] If you hadn't done—exactly, if you hadn't done that, we might still be in the war.
[14:42] I made a note to you that Stennis told the hospital that he approved the bombing of Cambodia and Laos, but he could not approve renewing the bombing of North Vietnam.
[14:59] And I want you, if you will, to take a quick trip out to the hospital and say, Senator, you know, brief him and say, we've got to hit the—in South Vietnam, just say that for a brief period, we've got to hit it in order to avoid a complete tobacco.
[15:23] I'm seeing him Friday morning at 10, Mr. President.
[15:26] We've got it scheduled already.
[15:28] You're going out there?
[15:29] Yep.
[15:32] And I'll talk to him then.
[15:34] That's only three days from now.
[15:36] I don't think he'll speak before then.
[15:39] No.
[15:41] But I'll call him tomorrow.
[15:42] Call him and tell him, Senator, don't make up your mind on bombing or anything else until I talk to you and you tell him what the hell the facts are.
[15:50] Right.
[15:53] Right.
[15:54] And in the meantime, put your arm around Holloman and Ehrlichman.
[15:59] You can count on it, Mr. Brandt.
[16:01] I've been standing by all of them, and I didn't know Ehrlichman was in trouble, too.
[16:10] Now, you can count on the fact that I'll stand by them.
[16:15] But the major person to stand by now is you.
[16:22] We shall see.
[16:26] But at least the old Sinatra gave him a lift and I thought the dinner was rather nice, you know.
[16:30] The whole evening was beautiful.
[16:32] The PM was nice and, you know, it was light and yet fun for everybody.
[16:38] The whole evening was beautiful.
[16:47] Well, sleep on it.
[16:48] We'll all try to get some ideas.
[16:52] I don't think Carmen's judgment is very good.
[16:54] I don't, you know, I mean,
[16:56] He panicked so easily.
[16:58] He panicked on Cambodia and everything else earlier.
[17:01] That's right.
[17:02] That's been my experience.
[17:03] I just feel that we may have to...
[17:06] So far, you haven't got the evidence.
[17:10] If you get some evidence that makes it look that the fellows can't be held...
[17:15] If it's hard evidence, though, God damn it, I'm not going to...
[17:17] If you get hard evidence...
[17:18] It's got to be corroborated.
[17:19] I'm going to let them do it on the basis of... Then you ought to fire the people...
[17:24] against you, you have evidence, and the others ought to consider resigning.
[17:27] Yep.
[17:31] Well, it'll be a great day on the other side for all of our enemies on it.
[17:40] Time, suppose, the rest should... That's right, Mr. Pratt.
[17:45] Pull it together, the wagons, and pull it through, as you've done so often.
[17:53] Well,
[17:56] What's really disturbing is that comparing this goddamn thing with Teapot Dome, for Christ's sakes, which was thievery on a massive basis, isn't what this is all about.
[18:08] That's right, Mr. President.
[18:09] In a year, that will be clear.
[18:13] It'll take that long, I'm afraid.
[18:15] Maybe less.
[18:17] I think if the major thing now is to
[18:24] Let it be squeezed out a little at a time.
[18:27] That's right.
[18:27] That's right.
[18:29] And I think once you have all the facts, I think you should consider then at least cleaning at least that part of the house that must be cleaned.
[18:43] Right.
[18:44] However, right?
[18:46] Right.
[18:47] Okay, all right.
[18:47] Right, Mr. President.
[18:55] Thank you.