Nixon phone call with Haldeman on Watergate and John Dean

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Oh, yes, sir.

Well, I just wanted to say that keep the faith.

Yes, sir.

How'd the dinner go?

Well, it was fine.

Great, great success.

Was Sinatra okay?

Oh, he was fine.

Just did a beautiful job.

Standing ovation for him and everything.

Really, really well.

One of the more difficult ones I had, you know, what I had on my mind and everything.

It was good.

Well, I think, you know, we've reviewed what the worst is and what's in between and all, and I think we can deal with whatever it is.

And the thing now is just to play it as it lies day by day and see where we come out.

And looking down to what the vulnerabilities are and knowing it and then see what happens.

Is John finished?

I don't think so.

I don't think he went out.

Oh, yeah.

He had his conference with him, but I don't think he went to the jury.

Yep.

God, I just do hope that he says, look, I'm, I'll be a witness, but I'm not going to be a defendant.

You know?

Yeah.

Well, he will.

And that's, just say, here's the truth.

I'm sure that's what he'll do.

The only problem is if he thinks he's being helpful on something.

I don't think he will now.

I think he understands.

That's right.

One point that I heard today is that you and John, tomorrow afternoon we ought to meet again and really look hard at what's coming.

names and so forth.

And, you know, just be prepared for it.

I think, too, that you've got to consider the Dean thing.

I don't know whether somebody really ought to talk to him.

I don't know whether I should, but you must think about

or not, because he's obviously on the kick of saving himself.

And the U.S. Attorney is going to have a tough problem.

I think the U.S. Attorney, my guess is, will give him the immunity.

You think he will?

Well, I would think so, Bob.

And of course,

The U.S. attorney is giving him immunity so that he can tell the truth.

That doesn't bother me.

But if they give him the immunity in terms of if it's an incentive for him to lie, that's the thing.

But they, of course, have their other witnesses and so forth that try to corroborate it.

I do hope one thing that the other thing we've got to do is to get some kind of a

with regard to this whole business of helping the defendants.

I just feel some way that ought to be able to be done, you know what I mean?

I don't know whether there is any way, though, is there?

Well, I think I don't see anything other than the basic point that, you know, at least

as it's been discussed all along, that it was the fees and the support, and that's it, for people who— The 1.2, Bob, if you would be busy tomorrow, if you could be able to think over

There's one troublesome thing to me about Dean, and I want you to get the date when this happened.

You remember when he came in and had this information about Bittman?

I mean, you were there, but they would say, well, right at that moment, the president should have probably turned that over to the U.S. attorney, you see.

No.

Why not?

because you didn't know what you had.

You weren't in any position to turn it over to him.

Well, on the ground, the money said, look, they want money for their fees and so forth and so on.

And then he said, well—and I suppose we did.

I mean, in fairness, we were saying, well, what can be done, you know?

And the way Dean might put that is that, well,

You've got to figure that maybe he could say, well, he was in the president's office and told the president that, of course, he shouldn't be able to.

Yeah.

But what's your guess on that?

I just can't—I don't know.

I just can't conceive that he would.

But then he'll, of course, report that he reported it to Ehrlichman.

Erlichman said he couldn't do anything.

And it was discussed with Mitchell, right?

And was he present at that room at that time?

You know, when they said that Mitchell said, well, it's taken care of.

Yeah.

It was John that he talked to.

You were present.

Erlichman present.

Yeah.

Shows, I suppose, knowledge.

He said, why didn't you go tell the president then?

Well, again, you could argue because it was a separated amount specifically for fees and for that we probably had.

Right.

We'll give that one some hard thought, you know, because I suppose it would need to lob that one in pretty soon.

That's almost beyond belief.

If he has immunity, he'll do it.

He doesn't.

He may not ought to.

But the way he's operating, it's very interesting.

Of course, the problem is that he talked to me.

And that day, I talked goddamn freely with him.

I said, well, what the hell are you going to get?

He says, we don't have the money.

How much is it?

Yeah, it'll be a million dollars.

And I said, good God.

And they went into the blackmail thing.

He said, this is blackmail.

And I said, we can't be blackmailed, or somebody said that, or he did.

He got his say to his credit, didn't he?

I'm not sure he did.

I'm not sure he said we couldn't be.

I wish there were a way we could at least separate Ehrlichman out.

I don't know how you can because his—the vulnerability of a lawyer here is enormous because it's a destruction of his career.

Still, they've got a long ways to go before they can make a point on any of that.

Yep, it is a long ways.

And in the meantime, of course, that'll be a constant problem.

Well, no use to borrow any more trouble than we got, is there?

But let's sit down and just put on a piece of paper what the vulnerabilities are, how many people I see at the present time.

I've got clear cases in terms of prior knowledge of LaRue, Mitchell, Marty, and the murderer, possibly the lawyers.

What do you think, O'Brien?

Well, I guess so.

Yeah, I guess they must from what John said they did, cover up Brian and see now we're concerned.

And also what Ehrlichman's own investigation was, it's very important I think that we get that job so that that is really what triggered it rather than what Dean said, is my point.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

I mean, if we talk about it, we've got to really think about how the hell do you save what there is left of the presidency.

And the point is, if information comes to me, why, of course, I was just getting it before we turned out, but Ehrlichman did call the Attorney General, you know, and said, look, here it is.

And after that call, Ehrlichman regretted, so let's put it all down.

Okay.

Do you think that's a good idea?

Sure.

In the White House, the people that are involved would be Strachan, apart from you and John.

Strachan and I don't know anybody else.

Possibly Colson.

Possibly, I suppose, Fielding.

And who else?

I don't think Fielding is, but I'm not sure.

Yeah.

But strong.

Do you think of anybody else in the White House?

No.

Gordon is very peripheral.

He only has a conduit and a messenger.

Except for his—

with regard to how much money, that's a goddamn lousy bastard not to let him come into it.

They can't hang him on that.

He's got to go in and say, look, I called him, said as I checked, found the exact amount, it was twenty-two, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You're right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So that's that.

It doesn't touch I trust Higbee, does it?

I don't think so.

The curious business of their argument that, well, if Haldeman and Ehrlichman would resign, that's what is really strange.

Well, the gain from that, I guess, is if they get the fish and then let Dean off.

But they can't do that.

I mean, it's just better to let Dean go.

And then, of course, as we say, he's going to destroy the president, too.

Isn't that what he's threatened?

He's been threatening all the time, hasn't he, even to you?

No.

No, Dean, no.

He never did.

He always played as if he was part of the team trying to—he went through his cancer theory.

But he never—you know, the whole issue was just we got to—and then Ehrlichman was saying, and then let it all hang out in school.

And I said, all right, get at it.

What the hell is it?

Well, the tragedy, of course, is John, John Mitchell.

God damn it, why he, tough as it is, doesn't step up.

question and he's I guess he figures he can stall it out I don't think he can do it I mean there may be technical legal things and a lot of other things he can fight it'll take a long time but but he ought to step up to it and say look I assume the responsibility for this

like, for example, saying, Activate Kambach.

Who said that?

Mitchell said it.

Didn't he?

Yeah.

And then Dean proceeded to come to you.

You said, Okay.

That I'm not clear on.

I don't—he's never been direct on that.

He is on John.

Ehrlichman?

Yeah.

Went to Ehrlichman.

Ehrlichman said, Okay.

for some reason he hangs out on John and then he sort of alluded to that, you know, that I had agreed to or something.

Well, make him prove it.

Okay, John.

Bye.

Nixon phone call with Haldeman on Watergate and John Dean

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 18, 1973

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