On April 25, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 6:57 pm to 7:14 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-150 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Yes, sir.
Oh, Bob, you got home?
Yeah.
Oh, fine.
Are you rushing off?
No, no, not at all.
I'll just take a second.
Were you able to hear any of the rest of that?
No.
I'm trying to get a different machine that I can hear better on.
Go back to it.
Just a second.
I had a good talk with Peterson, and I told him about the need to expedite the grand jury second.
I told him I wanted a paper from him with regard to you and John.
He said he'd have it by Friday afternoon.
He said, I'd like to put my thoughts together and so forth.
And he said, we just don't have it yet.
I said, I wanted to be sure that you and John had an opportunity at the earliest time to meet with the recruiting team, you know?
have her counsel, and I haven't, John, you can pass it on to him, have your counsel request it, and that'll be done.
I said, the other thing I wanted to, I'm trying to prepare for the grand jury, I mean, so that there'd be no question of, you know, you know, waiting.
Well, we might have to have them twice, and I said, that's all right.
I said, the main thing is, I want them, I mean, I really think your getting up there is important.
Yep.
Soon.
Yep.
Yep.
Also, it's a positive move we can make.
Yep.
It's in our initiative, you see, and that's that.
Okay, good.
And with regard to the piece of paper I gave you on Ehrlichman, we had sent that, you know, out to the prosecutor.
They had to do that for this reason, that Dean basically, that was basically a little blackmail by him on them, you see.
Yeah.
Which they said if we didn't put it out, I mean, if they didn't, they'd say, why did you withhold it from the Ellsberg case, you see?
But that is likely.
It could come out.
I mean, Burr may ask if it devotes the source.
It will be Dean, and Dean will have to testify if he does.
Then that piece of thing, the Watergate muggers involved in the Ellsberg thing, it will not blow the Ellsberg case, you know, in his opinion, due to the fact that it wasn't used.
On the other hand, the fact of it will come out.
But I think that that was going to come out anyway, don't you feel so?
Probably.
Probably.
I think we've got to assume any of that stuff is.
I'm not sure that's bad if it does.
Well, it adds confusion to the whole thing.
The Watergate muggers tried to knock over Ellsberg's psychiatrist.
Well, in any event, that was about it.
You could call it the jaw and he wasn't home if you tell the White House operator that you
Oh, John, you talked to him and you sent him the piece of paper, did you, to get it to him?
I covered it with him, yeah.
I'll give it to him in the morning.
He understood the significance of it, of course.
Yep.
Yeah.
And did he see any other option?
No, his only concern was that it was getting fairly broad distribution.
I know, but it's going to get more broad distribution.
You see, what else can I tell a client?
He's going to forget it.
Yeah.
I just couldn't do that.
Yep.
And, you know, I could say, look, this is national security and you cannot turn it over to them, because Dean, who was another gunner, had an affectionate agenda.
Exactly.
The other point that I went, I leveled with Peterson on the, you know, the conversation that we had, and I said, I want you to know this, and I said, well, not be blackmailed on it.
Didn't do anything about it, but that's when I started my investigation.
And that's our line there.
I think the more I think of that, you know, I'm under no illusions on it.
I think that should just be between you and me.
Okay.
And I think I don't, at this point, I don't think we ought to, John, have him worry about it and the rest.
Okay.
Unless you want to.
You mean the contents?
No, I didn't intend to.
I think...
just so that we can know that the, in other words, as far as the conversation, it's one that I had and that you had.
Yep.
And we'll see what, if he wants to play that, then we'll play it.
Whatever it's worth.
Does it bother you, Peterson?
Well, everything bothers me.
He said that Dean, he says, is,
He says he doesn't ever want to.
He says he'll lie for that goddamn Erlichman, but he will, of course, defend the president.
I said, well, we'll see.
He hit John, apparently, huh?
Well, I think he's out to save himself, but he's going to play every card that he can.
And a desperate man, he may want to bring the president down, too.
But in this case...
There's no other choice that's to fight like hell.
This is an evil man, you know.
He knows that this was a legitimate thing to be doing.
He was deeply in it.
Incidentally, he's likely to be called as a witness in the Ellsberg case, too.
I mean, in the Nabisco case.
He is?
Yep, because apparently he made a telephone call, which is alleged, and under the caution indictment on the... against Nabisco.
Good Lord.
Is that the name?
Vesco, yeah.
Yeah?
Yeah.
So, uh, be on that damn thing, too.
My God.
Does Peterson still feel you can't make any move on Dean?
Not at this point.
Because they're still trying to, he's going to try to make Dean's lawyers come to him.
You know?
And, uh,
And he's right.
He's right.
In other words, but let me say, there can't be any move made on you and or Bob or John until the Dean thing is resolved.
And I made that damn clear to Peterson.
I said, I wasn't going to.
I said, I can't.
I said, I can't.
He said, you realize if I have these fellows resign, I am in effect saying I judge them guilty.
I said, no, any other way is.
And I said, if I do that, I said, I have to do it.
write to do it with them and Dean and so forth.
So, you know, I went through the whole drill and told him that I sort of gave him the impression that I wasn't going to do a damn thing, but I wanted to look over his papers.
See what I mean?
My own belief at this point is that from yours and John's information that we've just got to stand goddamn firm today, tomorrow, Friday, weekend.
You know what I mean?
And, uh,
I just, you know, I wouldn't assume, but I think it's going to come.
Anyway, whatever John Dean knows is going to come out, Bob.
That's right.
That's right.
But, uh, you know, I always wondered about that taping equipment, but I'm damn glad we have it, aren't you?
Yes, sir.
I think it's just one thing I went through today.
It was very helpful.
Well, it has some things in there that, uh,
But on the other hand, we also have some things in there that we know that I said that we're pretty good.
I mean, this is wrong and blackmail and how much is this going to cost and so forth and so on.
Then on the other hand, I said, well, let's get that, but how would you handle it?
But that, of course, those are all leading questions.
I don't know how you analyze it, but I don't know.
I really don't think it would be
Oh, if that comes out, it's another hard thing to explain, but I think it's explainable.
Right.
And I just think Dean's, well, I can't imagine they would do that.
Yeah.
Except as he sees it.
Did Peterson know what Dean's big bomb thing was?
No, he didn't.
Wasn't he supposed to get some big threat from Dean or something?
No, he won't get that, Bob.
I said, well, I just want to be sure it may get to this.
I said, he thinks maybe it's some conversations he had with Dean.
That may be.
But I think it's this, don't you?
I don't know.
I don't really.
Maybe.
So what the hell else could it be, that bomb?
I mean, he's got a big bomb and he's going to throw it.
I think it's this.
I would say that he's going to say, well, the president was, he told the president about the, you know, they're going to pay these people off and so forth.
And that John Mitchell, and I think the other thing is that John Mitchell was in the presence of, the man at Ehrlichman said it had been taken care of, or words to that effect.
Is that right?
I suppose he could say that, right?
Yep.
And then it's his word against the rest of you, right?
Yep.
That's why you just...
I don't see how we...
There's no way you really can speak with Dean on this.
No way.
No, no, no way.
No way.
You want to try to...
You see, the only problem is to handle it in such a way that he doesn't become a totally implacable enemy.
That's right.
Totally implacable.
And I think for that reason, handling the way I have at least may help in that respect.
I, at least, have treated him decently, more decently than he deserves.
Yep.
And he may become totally implacable.
If he does, you're going to have one hell of a pissing contest.
Yep.
If you do, you're just going to win it.
What else can you do, huh?
What else can you do?
And, you know, when you think of all this kind of thing, you know, when John talks about, I was just thinking a little bit more about the impeachment thing.
I don't see the Senate or any senator starting an impeachment of the president based on the word of John Dean.
That's right.
That's all it is, you know.
I mean, John Dean says that this and that and the other thing happened.
And there's no way he can support it.
I mean, there's no way to make a case.
Well, except he could be here every quarter of his conversation.
I mean, he went back and made a memorandum, told his lawyers immediately thereafter and so forth and so on.
Yeah.
But even there, I mean, here's a case.
Unless he's got a tape recording.
unless he has a tape recording.
And even with the tape recording, I think you can make the case the other way.
I don't know.
I can't believe that he could have walked in there with a tape recorder that day because that day, I mean, I'm not trying to be wishful thinking, that particular day, he wasn't really out to get the president.
No, I don't think so.
No, sir, he wasn't.
He was exactly going just the other way.
Trying to help.
That's right.
And I just can't conceive that he would have
Unless he tape records everything that he comes in.
Nope.
You're sure of that?
No, I'm not sure of it, but I haven't read any reason to believe that he did.
And the way, you know, he dresses just casual enough in his clothing and all that, I can't imagine.
If you have a tape recorder, it's bulky, and you've got to get it in your pocket somewhere and all that.
It isn't all that easy to do.
Right, right, right.
In any event, that's that.
So we don't want to borrow trouble.
I mean, we've done enough without borrowing any, don't we?
And although, let me say that this is April 25th.
We can figure that this is the day we start up.
Seriously.
I think that's right.
I don't think I'm being Pollyannish about it.
I think that
He's been with that damn thing all right.
My God, there it is.
Put it out.
And I hear lawyers, they say, I mean, we can't go on this damn business of resignation now.
It isn't going to work.
That's right.
It just isn't going to work right now.
The leave of absence thing, I don't know, with regard, do you really think that really buys us anything?
I don't know.
Well, we'll consider it.
We'll have to think about it in terms of—one other thing.
Steve told me today that he thought there was a chance that I would not—that maybe I could get out of doing that damned finance dinner on May the 9th.
He said that the program wasn't going as well as they'd expected and so forth and so on.
Is there a chance?
I don't know.
the majority to enter so-called.
It's a thing I should avoid like the plague if I could.
Except that the parents, I would think, if you don't do it, they'll make a big thing out of it.
They couldn't sell any tickets because of the Watergate and the president didn't come.
I see.
That's my view.
I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure what the situation is.
They're not selling too many tickets somewhere.
I've heard that at least.
We heard other things from Bush.
They sold a while.
But, uh,
that's there, I could do it.
Another thing I could do is rather than really just give a reception at the White House and shake hands for a couple hours.
You know what I mean?
Rather than going out and having to make a speech.
Yeah, the problem is the people that go to that dinner are lobbyists and all that stuff.
That's right.
That's right.
That's all right.
I'd rather be shaking their hands, Bob, than to go out and be making a political speech that day, you know, a political speech without mentioning Watergate.
Yeah.
I think that's an option at least.
Yeah.
You're not planning to go to Mississippi Friday or Stewart for that, are you?
Yes, sir.
Absolutely.
By all means.
That's all good, that one.
Right.
You know, when you really start to think of it in terms of this whole thing, the line basically of everybody, you know, Connolly, Rogers, et al., which of course varies.
I mean, Harlow, the resignation line and so forth, is one that is so terribly attractive.
for a couple of days.
That's right.
You know what I mean?
It's, well, now the president's finally started off with a new team, but then, for Christ's sakes, something else blows, huh?
That's right.
On the other hand, the other line is to say, all right, the Granger is going to hear it and they're going to see it through.
I mean, to that point, that's a tenable line also, isn't it?
Yeah.
Of course, the problem with that, I suppose, is that... What happens, huh?
The problem with that is that what you could say is that rather than the president cleaning his house, the grand jury did.
But in a sense, if you want to argue that, we can say no.
The president said that's the way to do it.
You see my point?
Yeah.
And that is the point, the confidence in our institutions, the way things are supposed to be done.
That's right.
We're presenting all the things.
That's right.
the appearance before the grand jury, the going down there, and my suggestion, and so forth and so on.
That line, you and John might work out in the morning.
You tell them not to have John return the call, and you fill them in.
OK.
Right.
OK.