Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 038-155
Date: Wednesday, April 25, 1973 at 7:25 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ehrlichman, John D.
Recording device: White House Telephone
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-155

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] I wanted you to know that I just talked to Cline East and told him that I wanted him to tell the prosecutor, Neeson, or what his name is, and Cline East totally agreed that this was, I wanted them to know that this was a national security investigation of great sensitivity and that I, that none of the information of
[0:25] been there, but there was only percentages so that they would have it in their file and that I would, you know, and I said, do everything you can to see that this is not something that comes out publicly.
[0:37] Great.
[0:37] At least I don't know whether it'll work or not.
[0:40] Yeah, that's terrific.
[0:40] I don't know whether it's terrific or not.
[0:42] Well, it's the best that can be done.
[0:44] But you can see why, though, you could say that the lawyer was having a gun at their head.
[0:53] Sure.
[0:53] Sure, I think he had.
[0:56] I think he put it out there solely for the purpose of, what Peterson told me, he says, I think he put it out there for the purpose of frankly blackmailing Peterson and frankly maybe the White House.
[1:10] Well, then the best thing to do is what you did.
[1:13] We are not going to have any blackmail.
[1:16] Did he give you any sort of a reading on timing on Dean?
[1:21] Goddamn, he doesn't know.
[1:24] I should see why, if they're playing that kind of a game.
[1:28] Yes.
[1:28] He's waiting for them to come to him, you see.
[1:31] Yeah, yeah.
[1:31] Oh, I might as well tell you, since you haven't talked to Bob yet, that Dean isn't involved in another one.
[1:37] He's probably been called in the Vesco case.
[1:39] Apparently, it is alleged that Dean made a call on the Vesco case to attempt to quash an indictment.
[1:48] And they're going to call him on that damn day, so he'll be up there before that grand jury, too.
[1:52] What in the world did he do that for?
[1:55] Well, because that's what you'll ask him.
[1:56] I don't know.
[1:58] But so there's that.
[2:03] But just for your own computation and so forth,
[2:13] a lot of thinking about this, and I want you to do a lot too, but I told Peter Sunday, I said, look, I said, I, he's getting his, I told you, he's getting his paper to me Friday.
[2:24] I told him about the desire to have you people, your preliminary, you know, informal discussion, and up here before the graduate, I said, well, we might have to have him again.
[2:35] I said, all right, have him again.
[2:36] But I said, we're on the offensive here.
[2:38] I said, I want to be on the offensive on this thing.
[2:41] You see, that's a positive action too, John.
[2:43] Sure, sure.
[2:44] And I said, the other—the Dash is called—oh, that's the other thing.
[2:49] I didn't tell Bob.
[2:51] The Dash had called him and said that the Dash had called—was trying to get Dean before their committee.
[2:57] They talked to Dean's counsel.
[2:59] And so Henry Peterson is going to try to get Urban and other people out of the country on Monday to try to get that knocked off.
[3:12] may want to go up there and spill his coffee.
[3:15] I'm inclined to think with Dean, we'd like to play the string out a little bit.
[3:21] I mean, just a bit in terms of seeing just how far he wants to go.
[3:25] Just keep closing doors on him.
[3:28] Yeah.
[3:28] And incidentally, he said the prosecution, which originally was thinking in terms of possible immunity, has now reached the conclusion that
[3:42] It's turned around.
[3:44] I said, not because of what I said.
[3:45] No, Henry, I said, I want to make it clear.
[3:47] I said, any major person, it's your decision.
[3:50] He said, it is their decision and ours that they can't do it because of what is involved.
[3:55] I spoke to Clint.
[3:56] He said, it depends about the... And he said, hell no.
[3:59] He said, one thing about...
[4:02] He said...
[4:03] the president can't be blackmailed.
[4:06] And he says, and Clint East can't be blackmailed.
[4:08] He mentioned himself.
[4:09] And he said, Peterson can't be blackmailed because he's just shooting them all, all of them, you know.
[4:14] And I think, John, that's what it gets down to.
[4:17] We're in a fight here where he's trying to blackmail everybody.
[4:22] And I think he did the right thing.
[4:28] The main thing we've done is not to make a precipitate decision about anything.
[4:33] And we're going to do it in an orderly, right way.
[4:37] Now, the other thing, too, I want to tell you that on the...
[4:40] I want you to think about this business of the, you know, what we talked about, leave of absence and so forth.
[4:44] I'm not too convinced of that one on Bob.
[4:49] It may be.
[4:50] I mean, if you've got a minute now, does the leave of absence thing pass anything, really?
[4:57] Well, it depends on who you're talking to now.
[5:03] I think Connolly's about right on it, that it's not good, but it's also not as bad as the resignation.
[5:11] That shows you're trying to do something.
[5:14] That's right.
[5:16] Basically, but not for you.
[5:18] Well, in time.
[5:21] I think we have to contemplate that in due course it'll come, but it can't.
[5:24] In due course.
[5:25] It's premature right now.
[5:26] Well, we can't do it on the basis of what we've got, but let's have something go on this thing of the... Sure, or the...
[5:35] The Ellsberg interview with a U.S. attorney or something of that kind.
[5:38] That's right.
[5:40] That's right.
[5:42] But that's all right, too, but the point of this is the leave of absence doesn't convict anybody.
[5:46] That's right.
[5:47] And also it provides the...
[5:52] I'll tell you, I made a mistake in joining with Bob in retaining counsel.
[5:59] I think you're right.
[6:00] Yeah, because your case is so different from him.
[6:04] And if I can figure out some way of getting a little separation, I think it's wise to do.
[6:10] Couldn't agree more.
[6:11] You've got to do it.
[6:12] You've got to do it.
[6:12] Because, Bob, John, I love you both, but boy,
[6:19] together, you're in a hell of a lot more trouble if you go separately.
[6:22] That's true.
[6:24] And I know your situation and what it is.
[6:26] And Bob's is more difficult.
[6:30] It's different.
[6:32] Bob's is a hell of a lot more difficult on two scores, let's face it.
[6:35] One, the whole business of whether he had information before.
[6:40] That, I don't think they can make stick because it's drawn.
[6:44] I think you don't get it.
[6:45] Second,
[6:45] The money.
[6:47] The money specifically is going to be one son of a bitch.
[6:51] It is.
[6:52] Fred, we've got to face it.
[6:53] There's no way.
[6:55] You're getting launching Kambach and all that sort of thing.
[7:01] It depends to a certain extent on LaRue, too.
[7:04] LaRue, they're now trying to get the plea.
[7:07] He may.
[7:07] He may plead.
[7:09] Look at the poor son of a bitch.
[7:10] He's...
[7:12] But you ought to go separately.
[7:15] I'm not very wide of that whole operation.
[7:18] Now, the only thing that you, you know, that they claim isn't, that's not so rudely, but is the call to come back.
[7:26] Oh, yeah.
[7:28] That my fellows say they can handle.
[7:31] John, I think you can do.
[7:32] Good God, I mean, that was purely, was simply humanitarian, basically.
[7:37] And very perfunctory in the whole chain of circumstance, right?
[7:41] That's right.
[7:42] You basically, let's face it, is with regard to this whole national security area, isn't it?
[7:50] Well, I'm glad you did what you did.
[7:53] Don't you agree, though, with national security?
[7:56] Do you mean like on letting, having Chinese do this?
[7:59] Well, I didn't have any choice.
[8:00] He came in and says, I've got to do this.
[8:02] I'm sitting on this thing, and it's volcanic.
[8:05] I understand.
[8:06] I could have said...
[8:07] Dick, that's national security.
[8:09] Don't pass it on.
[8:09] But if I did, there's Dean's got another hammer in our head.
[8:12] Now, you're quite right.
[8:14] I hope you don't disagree.
[8:16] Oh, I don't.
[8:17] Not at all.
[8:17] I had to think.
[8:20] My own view is, as I said, I have told Dick all out there, as I just repeated to you earlier, I don't know whether to do any good.
[8:28] At least the U.S. attorney will know that I got this national security investigation.
[8:34] It was, but it didn't produce anything for it.
[8:38] All right, sir.
[8:39] Let us suppose this.
[8:40] Yeah.
[8:41] But just looking at it, with all the bark off, if you can call Dean, then we'll go out there and he'll testify to this.
[8:47] He'll probably say that, well, he was doing it as he was working in Ehrlichman, under Ehrlichman's direction, et cetera, right?
[8:55] Is that what he'll say?
[8:58] I don't think Dean can say that.
[9:01] They would have to get some other witness.
[9:03] They would have to get Lydia or Hunter or somebody.
[9:06] Say that the dean was not directly involved.
[9:10] He wasn't?
[9:11] No.
[9:11] Then how the hell does he know about this?
[9:12] It's his hearsay.
[9:13] Snooping over the fence.
[9:16] Oh, I see.
[9:17] Oh, I see.
[9:18] He wasn't an actor.
[9:19] No, sir.
[9:21] No, sir.
[9:23] Well, then there it is.
[9:24] He'll just go out and he'll do it in hearsay.
[9:26] So if he did, though, say if that comes up, John, well, that's just something we'll have to live with.
[9:36] And we're not going to die over it, though.
[9:38] That's right.
[9:38] If they did, what would you say?
[9:41] Wouldn't you just do it?
[9:43] Well, I'd say what is the fact that my connection with it was I authorized their travel, and I authorized them to go out and investigate Ellsberg.
[9:55] And among the things that were to be investigated out there was an examination of his medical records, if that were possible.
[10:04] That's right.
[10:06] They chose a method that I did not approve.
[10:09] When I heard about it afterwards, I disapproved of it.
[10:14] And my shortcoming, my failing, was in not bringing them to account on it, not just having them arrested on discovery.
[10:28] Since it was a highly sensitive area, and you can also point out the Federal Bureau of Investigation at that time
[10:36] We can never get that across.
[10:40] Would not or could not?
[10:41] How do we say that?
[10:42] We all know why Hoover didn't do it.
[10:45] That would be a part of that, I suppose.
[10:48] Again, I think I'll talk to Wilson about this in the morning just so that he's forewarned.
[10:53] That's right.
[10:53] And he can do some briefing on it.
[11:00] Wait a minute.
[11:00] I don't think there's any legal thing here at Hoover.
[11:03] Well, I don't either, but I don't know.
[11:09] Well, for Christ's sakes, I mean, you didn't authorize any damn break-in or anything of that sort.
[11:14] Right, that's correct.
[11:15] You had nothing to do with that.
[11:16] I don't mean that.
[11:17] I'm referring now to the public thing, John, rather than the... No, you didn't break the damn law.
[11:22] I don't mean that.
[11:25] I mean, these clowns did a lot of things that...
[11:29] We were conducting an investigation of this matter and authorized him to go to check with regard to this and that, you know, and so forth.
[11:39] We did not know.
[11:40] They did not know.
[11:41] In fact, we discovered it later.
[11:43] Yeah, I was told about it afterward.
[11:45] That's right.
[11:47] Were you told?
[11:48] Yes, afterward.
[11:52] And he retained after that, I guess he was.
[11:54] Not very long.
[11:55] Yeah.
[11:57] All right.
[11:57] That's good.
[11:58] That's good.
[11:59] But let me say, there's nothing legal about it.
[12:02] But the other option for me to try to stomp on East and this fellow again, you know, and say, look, this is national security.
[12:17] I did that from Camp David, and I think that's about as far as I can go.
[12:21] Or do you agree?
[12:21] I think so.
[12:22] I think you've done what you can and should there.
[12:26] If I had told him today, look, you cannot use this information, I think Dean then had another club to think about.
[12:34] Oh, do you agree?
[12:35] Yep.
[12:35] Absolutely.
[12:36] Absolutely.
[12:37] I think this opens it up and lets the pressure out.
[12:41] Well, not only the pressure, but, you know, an interesting thing is that Peter's reaction to this, he says, and I'm so surprised, he says, you know,
[12:52] He didn't know about my—he didn't know at the time.
[12:54] I told him I talked to Clash, but what the talk was about.
[12:57] He said, you know, he says, I think these attorneys made a terrible mistake in putting this out there.
[13:02] I said, why do you think it was a mistake?
[13:05] He said, because they were trying to test us.
[13:07] They were trying to see if we got this information.
[13:09] They didn't think we'd use it.
[13:12] And they thought they would hold that over our heads, that we had this information with regard to this illegal break-in and did not use it in the Ellsberg case.
[13:22] I think he has a good point.
[13:23] Yeah.
[13:24] Or do you agree?
[13:25] Yeah, I do.
[13:26] And he said, makes all the poison out of it by, yeah.
[13:28] Takes the poison out.
[13:29] And also puts Dean in a position where he doesn't have that, where he can't say that, well, we stopped the investigation, which was illegal.
[13:41] Mm-hmm.
[13:41] Mm-hmm.
[13:41] Yeah.
[13:41] Anyway, okay.
[13:43] All right, sir.
[13:43] And stand firm, right?
[13:45] See you tomorrow.
[13:46] Cool.
[13:46] Bye.