{"conversationCode":"039-051","tapeNumber":39,"conversationNumber":51,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-039-051","startDateTime":"1973-06-04T01:37:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-06-04T01:45:00.000Z","startDate":"3-Jun-1973","startTime":"9:37 PM","endDate":"3-Jun-1973","endTime":"9:45 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"White House operator; Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.;","description":"On June 3, 1973, White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 9:37 pm to 9:45 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 039-051 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":"Abuse of Governmental Power Release","aogpSegment":"Segment 0","lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 39-51\n\nDate: June 3, 1973\nTime: 9:37 pm - 9:45 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe White House operator talked with the President.\n\n       Incoming telephone call\n\nThe President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\n       Watergate\n             -John W. Dean, III\n                    -Notes of meetings with President\n                           -Chronology\n                                   -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman\n                           -President’s conversation with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.\n                    -Motives\n                           -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.\n                           -Immunity\n                    -Notes of meetings with President\n                           -Copying\n                                   -Timing\n                    -Tapes of phone calls\n                    -Chronological files\n                           -Memoranda of conversation [memcons]\n                           -Work habits\n                    -Contacts with President\n                           -Haldeman’s analysis\n                                   -Dates of conversations\n                           -Meeting, March 23\n                                   -Key Biscayne\n                                   -James W. McCord, Jr.\n                                   -Camp David\n                           -President’s orders regarding cover-up\n                                   -Executive privilege\n                                   -L[ouis] Patrick Gray III\n\f                                               -43-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                            Conversation No. 39-51 (cont’d)\n\n                                    -Executive privilege\n                                           -Compared with cover-up\n              -Richard A. Moore\n                     -Forthcoming conversation with Ziegler\n              -Buzhardt’s schedule\n                     -Charles A. Wright\n                     -Ziegler\n              -Dean\n                     -Files\n                            -Possible examination\n                                   -Buzhardt, Leonard, Garment\n                                   -Haig\n                                   -Buzhardt’s view\n                                          -Presidential papers\n                            -Copying","filename":["039-051.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["White House operator","Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L."],"prevCode":"039-050","nextCode":"039-052","transcript":[{"start":0.54,"end":1.88,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":2.1,"end":2.78,"text":"Jessica?"},{"start":2.8,"end":3.12,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":3.3,"end":3.76,"text":"Hi, Ron."},{"start":3.84,"end":17.9,"text":"And getting that stuff ready for tomorrow, I wonder if you would give a call if you don't already have it and get the days that where he saw me."},{"start":17.96,"end":19.52,"text":"Oh, we have all that."},{"start":19.54,"end":20.44,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":20.66,"end":26.05,"text":"Because that will mean you won't have to look at an awful lot of stuff."},{"start":26.07,"end":26.63,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":26.65,"end":27.49,"text":"We have it all."},{"start":27.84,"end":28.18,"text":"Right."},{"start":28.5,"end":31.43,"text":"We have the dates and the times and the lengths and the whole thing."},{"start":31.55,"end":32.51,"text":"Right."},{"start":32.53,"end":34.47,"text":"And we're going to get on that first thing in the morning?"},{"start":35.73,"end":39.68,"text":"Well, I talked to Al after I talked to you, and he agreed with the idea."},{"start":40.2,"end":41.78,"text":"The problem, of course, is how to do it."},{"start":42.12,"end":57.78,"text":"And what a bizarre or the consensus of the group for you as to what Dean and his people are up to at this moment, you know, with sort of his"},{"start":58.23,"end":61.36,"text":"almost a wild exaggeration and so forth and so on."},{"start":61.38,"end":75.81,"text":"Well, basically as I understood it, my discussions was the desire for immunity and the desire to muddy the waters really as much as possible from their own self-serving standpoint."},{"start":76.77,"end":80.98,"text":"And therefore to make the immunity more desirable and so forth."},{"start":82.42,"end":86.5,"text":"To make it appear really that he is more than he in fact has."},{"start":87.53,"end":90.65,"text":"kind of like his key and lockbox thing."},{"start":94.07,"end":95.52,"text":"That's right."},{"start":96.2,"end":110.37,"text":"But they don't know—we don't know whether—with regard to Xeroxes of materials, which doesn't bother me particularly, if he's got them, that's that, because that's probably better than his recollection."},{"start":111.51,"end":116.34,"text":"But the point is, we just don't know on that, because he could have done it any time before April 30th, couldn't he?"},{"start":116.36,"end":117.42,"text":"That's right."},{"start":117.82,"end":126.17,"text":"And he might be referring to that, but he throws that out, and the idea of taping telephone calls and that sort of thing, which also doesn't..."},{"start":126.19,"end":136.88,"text":"I don't think, Mr. President, knowing the way Dean worked and operated, I don't think he has anything in his cron file."},{"start":136.9,"end":144.92,"text":"I think everyone's making altogether too big of a deal about so-called cron files, those types of things."},{"start":145.85,"end":150.39,"text":"Well, anybody, of course, goes in and makes a memorandum after a conversation, but he's probably got that."},{"start":150.41,"end":152.44,"text":"I don't think Dean even did that."},{"start":152.5,"end":152.68,"text":"No?"},{"start":152.88,"end":153.68,"text":"Quite frankly, no."},{"start":153.88,"end":154.78,"text":"He didn't work that way."},{"start":156.26,"end":156.6,"text":"He didn't?"},{"start":156.88,"end":157.1,"text":"No."},{"start":158.2,"end":163.35,"text":"It'd be interesting to see his files, and that's one reason why that would be a good exercise."},{"start":164.69,"end":170.1,"text":"I don't think Dean was that disciplined in his work habits that he would walk out and..."},{"start":170.12,"end":174.52,"text":"But he might have later conjectured it all up and..."},{"start":174.89,"end":181,"text":"made up a lot of crap, but that would be dangerous as well."},{"start":181.02,"end":185.6,"text":"But Dean was not a very disciplined worker as such."},{"start":185.62,"end":186.31,"text":"He wasn't, no."},{"start":186.41,"end":188.63,"text":"I don't think so."},{"start":188.65,"end":191.73,"text":"That's what I observed."},{"start":191.75,"end":197.4,"text":"But we'll— Well, in any event, you've got the—you do then have— We have Bob, yes."},{"start":197.44,"end":200.54,"text":"—like these—like, for example, you told me today,"},{"start":201.11,"end":211.55,"text":"They went the 28th of February, the 27th and 28th, and the 1st of March, the 2nd, and then skipped over for about a week until about the, you know, without any— That's right."},{"start":211.57,"end":214.21,"text":"Yeah, the pattern fits on press conferences and so forth."},{"start":214.77,"end":216.62,"text":"The 1st and then the 14th."},{"start":216.84,"end":217.14,"text":"Right."},{"start":217.72,"end":220.18,"text":"Then the 21st and the 20th."},{"start":220.86,"end":222.5,"text":"The 20th, the 21st and 22nd."},{"start":222.62,"end":222.82,"text":"Right."},{"start":223.69,"end":228.57,"text":"And then I made two calls, Troy, from Keebus again at 23rd, and that was the time, as you know, of the—"},{"start":229.38,"end":230.7,"text":"That's right."},{"start":230.8,"end":233.24,"text":"So I'm sure that's what the damn conversation was all about."},{"start":233.5,"end":238.87,"text":"And he was up there, I think at Camp David, trying to write something out."},{"start":239.97,"end":240.77,"text":"Yeah, I think so too."},{"start":242.23,"end":252.23,"text":"What do you think he is referring to when he says the President directly directed him to cover up and so forth?"},{"start":252.25,"end":254.37,"text":"That is unbelievable."},{"start":254.41,"end":258.05,"text":"I don't—I think it's an exaggeration of some of the discussions we had on the"},{"start":258.47,"end":267.42,"text":"executive privilege or on his appearance before Gray, none of it, you know, not a goddamn thing I do with cover-ups."},{"start":267.44,"end":268.68,"text":"That's exactly right."},{"start":268.7,"end":269.76,"text":"I mean, we weren't..."},{"start":270.44,"end":273.06,"text":"executive privilege and so forth had nothing to do with that."},{"start":273.1,"end":291.34,"text":"That all related to the, and I remember the discussion, and remember the whole argument of things that related to the, whether or not it would be a violation of separation of powers for men in the executive branch to be, or on the White House staff to be questioned."},{"start":291.74,"end":294.03,"text":"That's what the discussion was during that whole time."},{"start":295.03,"end":297.47,"text":"Well, it didn't have a goddamn thing to do with cover-up, Rob."},{"start":297.57,"end":298.25,"text":"Not a thing?"},{"start":298.27,"end":298.33,"text":"No."},{"start":298.9,"end":305.49,"text":"I mean, the whole point was how we were to handle this in a way that was consistent with separation of powers and so forth."},{"start":307.19,"end":319.79,"text":"Well, be sure to have your talk with Dick Moore and really ring him out, you know, because he isn't too disciplined either, but he'll recall anything that's interesting."},{"start":319.83,"end":326.83,"text":"And, of course, Dick is not only totally loyal, but he's also a fellow that will"},{"start":327.83,"end":329.97,"text":"I think recall the truth."},{"start":330.11,"end":331.05,"text":"That's the point around him."},{"start":331.11,"end":332.79,"text":"He's very believable, too."},{"start":332.81,"end":335.64,"text":"Right."},{"start":336.04,"end":337.64,"text":"I'll talk to him in the morning."},{"start":337.66,"end":338.72,"text":"All right, fine."},{"start":338.78,"end":339.68,"text":"I'll see you then."},{"start":339.7,"end":342.22,"text":"When are you going to work on this?"},{"start":342.28,"end":344.2,"text":"But I want to get that done in the morning."},{"start":344.29,"end":347.13,"text":"First thing in the morning, I see Lazard at 8.30."},{"start":347.59,"end":350.83,"text":"He's going to meet with Charles Wright at 7.30, and then I'm going to see him at 8.30."},{"start":350.85,"end":353.81,"text":"The thing is that I want this done, however."},{"start":353.83,"end":356.92,"text":"I don't want it done by Lazard or Garment or anybody else, you know."},{"start":357,"end":357.6,"text":"I think it's"},{"start":358.03,"end":359.62,"text":"Al is the best one to do it."},{"start":359.64,"end":359.86,"text":"All right."},{"start":360.4,"end":365.36,"text":"I think he's—if he thinks it's proper, he should just walk in, take a look."},{"start":365.5,"end":366.38,"text":"Oh, sure, it's proper."},{"start":366.4,"end":367.46,"text":"I talked to Bizarre tonight."},{"start":367.78,"end":368.26,"text":"What did he say?"},{"start":368.34,"end":369.4,"text":"He said, thank goodness."},{"start":369.44,"end":370.65,"text":"He said, that's fantastic."},{"start":371.77,"end":373.09,"text":"What, to go in and look at the files?"},{"start":373.11,"end":373.43,"text":"Oh, sure."},{"start":374.33,"end":375.83,"text":"Well, I read a journal that we couldn't do that."},{"start":375.91,"end":382.06,"text":"No, he was under the impression that there was an order that we couldn't look at them."},{"start":382.54,"end":385.42,"text":"Well, there is an order that we can't look at, basically."},{"start":386.18,"end":386.42,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":387.06,"end":388.18,"text":"Ron had other files."},{"start":388.42,"end":390.36,"text":"I don't want him to paw through all of them."},{"start":390.44,"end":390.84,"text":"That's right."},{"start":390.92,"end":391.61,"text":"He understands that."},{"start":391.85,"end":398.93,"text":"Yeah, but in the view of the fact that the security has been broken on Dean's files, God damn it, we're going to look at his files."},{"start":398.95,"end":399.86,"text":"No, Buzard says it's perfect."},{"start":399.88,"end":401.4,"text":"He said those are the President's files."},{"start":402.56,"end":403.06,"text":"I see."},{"start":403.08,"end":409.35,"text":"I think there was some confusion there, but Buzard, when I told him you said this and that directly ordered it, he said, that's great."},{"start":410.77,"end":414.86,"text":"And he said, we'll do it under whatever procedure we're authorized to do it."},{"start":414.88,"end":416.36,"text":"It would be tremendously helpful."},{"start":417.05,"end":418.69,"text":"Right."},{"start":418.71,"end":420.33,"text":"But it'd be best to have all of it, I think."},{"start":420.35,"end":427.26,"text":"Yeah, and we have the dates, and they're only... And I don't know that Xeroxing is necessary."},{"start":427.28,"end":430.79,"text":"I'm not sure that taking copies out is the right thing to do."},{"start":432.49,"end":434.8,"text":"We just want the substance of the damn thing."},{"start":435.04,"end":437.26,"text":"Xeroxing makes an awful big deal of it, doesn't it?"},{"start":437.28,"end":437.84,"text":"Not really."},{"start":438.4,"end":439.92,"text":"How do you do with your Xerox?"},{"start":440.06,"end":441.69,"text":"You can do that pretty easily, can't you?"},{"start":441.71,"end":441.91,"text":"Oh, sure."},{"start":444.13,"end":446.32,"text":"We'll have Al take a look at it and see what's there."},{"start":446.38,"end":449.62,"text":"And then we can go from there."},{"start":450.68,"end":450.9,"text":"Right."},{"start":451.62,"end":452.37,"text":"Okay, Ron."},{"start":452.41,"end":453.63,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discuss strategies to counter John W. Dean III’s allegations regarding a Watergate cover-up and his efforts to seek immunity. The President expresses skepticism about Dean’s work habits and record-keeping, while emphasizing that past discussions regarding executive privilege were matters of constitutional principle rather than criminal activity. To prepare a defense, Nixon directs Ziegler and Alexander Haig to examine Dean’s files to better understand the nature of the materials he may have removed or copied.","topics":["Watergate scandal","John W. Dean III","Executive privilege","White House records","Immunity","Presidential files"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T05:47:14.555Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate-scandal","john-w-dean-iii","executive-privilege","white-house-records","immunity","presidential-files"],"audioDurationSec":460,"audioFiles":[{"file":"039-051.mp3","bytes":14712832,"durationSec":459.63,"bitrate":256083,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:02.071Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:42.805Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/039-051.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/039-051","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/39/conversation-039-051","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}