{"conversationCode":"039-053","tapeNumber":39,"conversationNumber":53,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-039-053","startDateTime":"1973-06-04T01:46:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-06-04T01:48:00.000Z","startDate":"3-Jun-1973","startTime":"9:46 PM","endDate":"3-Jun-1973","endTime":"9:48 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.;","description":"On June 3, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 9:46 pm to 9:48 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 039-053 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":"Abuse of Governmental Power Release","aogpSegment":"Segment 0","lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 39-53\n\nDate: June 3, 1973\nTime: 9:46 pm - 9:48 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\f                                              -44-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\n                                                              Conversation No. 39-53 (cont’d)\n\n       Watergate\n             -John W. Dean, III\n                    -Motive\n                          -Lawyers\n                          -Ziegler’s assessment","filename":["039-053.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L."],"prevCode":"039-052","nextCode":"039-054","transcript":[{"start":0.54,"end":1.22,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":2.08,"end":12.93,"text":"Ron, one thing that occurred to me, just curious, how does this fit in with your theory that you had some time that Dean really wasn't out to get the president, you know, that sort of thing?"},{"start":13.59,"end":15.4,"text":"It sort of runs contrary to that, doesn't it?"},{"start":15.42,"end":18.32,"text":"Well, I think it does."},{"start":19.04,"end":24.09,"text":"I think his advisers probably are pushing him in this direction."},{"start":24.39,"end":24.97,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":24.99,"end":29.3,"text":"I don't think his—I still believe that his personality—"},{"start":29.53,"end":32.97,"text":"and his conviction is out to get the president."},{"start":34.31,"end":40.92,"text":"I think most of this is just, excuse me, self-focused and pushed by his advisors."},{"start":42.3,"end":42.78,"text":"His lawyers."},{"start":42.8,"end":46.43,"text":"His lawyers and others, who probably are out to get the president."},{"start":46.45,"end":46.69,"text":"Sure."},{"start":47.63,"end":50.26,"text":"And also figure that this is the only way they're going to get him off."},{"start":50.77,"end":54,"text":"That I think is probably the motive, yes, sir."},{"start":54.02,"end":55.78,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":55.8,"end":56.2,"text":"Okay, thanks."},{"start":56.24,"end":58.41,"text":"But as a man, I don't..."},{"start":58.89,"end":64.47,"text":"I still believe that he is not out viciously to get the president."},{"start":65.35,"end":68.2,"text":"You really think so, huh?"},{"start":68.22,"end":69.33,"text":"Excuse me, I think so, yes, sir."},{"start":70.33,"end":70.65,"text":"Okay."},{"start":70.93,"end":72.17,"text":"Okay."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Ronald Ziegler discussed the motivations behind John W. Dean III's recent actions regarding the Watergate investigation. Ziegler posited that Dean’s behavior was less about personal animosity toward the President and more a product of strategic pressure applied by his legal counsel for defense purposes. Nixon remained skeptical of this assessment, questioning whether Dean’s actions were inherently malicious.","topics":["Watergate","John W. Dean III","Ronald Ziegler","Legal Counsel","Presidential Strategy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T05:47:26.794Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate","john-w-dean-iii","ronald-ziegler","legal-counsel","presidential-strategy"],"audioDurationSec":78,"audioFiles":[{"file":"039-053.mp3","bytes":2496512,"durationSec":77.89,"bitrate":256403,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:02.071Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:42.805Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/039-053.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/039-053","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/39/conversation-039-053","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}