Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 39 › Conversation 039-085

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and Archibald Cox

Monday, June 4, 1973 · 10:50 PM–10:53 PM ET · White House Telephone · 4 min

ParticipantsWhite House operator; Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation039-085 on Tape 39StartMonday, June 4, 1973 at 10:50 PMEndMonday, June 4, 1973 at 10:53 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 039-085 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discuss strategy regarding the handling of presidential papers and the ongoing Watergate investigations. Nixon instructs Ziegler to coordinate with J. Fred Buzhardt and Leonard Garment to frame the refusal of document access in a more positive light, while maintaining an uncompromising stance against subpoenas. The two also agree to wait for internal conflicts within the Senate committee and the office of Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox to unfold before deciding on further public relations tactics.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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· Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).
Hello?
I am Mr. Ziegler, sir.
Yeah.
Hello?
Hello?
Yes, sir.
A point that Bob raised, which I'd like for you to work on, because you'll be going off to Paris tomorrow with Bazzard, is that the thing that Fox raised today with regard to the papers and so forth and so on,
I don't think that it's an adequate answer to simply say there will be no papers.
I mean, you should sit down with Bazaar and Garment and so forth and work out a more effective answer.
The point is that you've got to put it in a more positive sense that any individual will testify.
Papers are not available.
Individuals who want to testify, of course, have access to their papers for the purposes of preparing themselves for testimony.
I don't know what had you said on that.
Well, that's basically what we said today.
It was very sad.
It was a little bit distorted around, but not in any negative way.
Bob and I just finished a fairly long conversation.
Yeah, I know.
And both he and I agree after the discussion that we should...
obviously keep handling the part on the papers in this positive way you just suggested.
You can't give an inch on it, you know.
You can't give an inch with regard to letting him have them.
But you can't let Cox make a hell of a lot of issue that there's something, you know, said in the goddamn papers here.
We're not there, is it?
That's right.
Is it making that part real?
Yes.
And we'll continue to do that.
And I'll meet with, I'm going to meet with the Czar in the morning at 7.30 and we'll try it more.
But Bob and I both agree that we should let the Boers—not the Boers, the Deans—run out their string a little bit.
Because we have all this conflict going.
We've got the Cox conflict with Irvin.
We've got a little rumbling of Dash versus Thompson going on in the committee.
And we have—by letting them run their string, we leave all of our options open.
We either hit them in the, you know, testimony.
Right.
Or we may move to a leak program later on down the line, depending on what happens.
Yeah.
Or, you know, we may just ignore them.
But Bob also feels we let them run out to strike a little bit.
No, I told Bob, and he probably told you, he will try to prepare a little.
He's going to send it to me only from my eyes, the memcons and his own conversations.
Right.
In addition to that, you'll get from Moore his memcons and the conversations he was participating in.
He probably won't have anybody.
Well, we'll drain him out tomorrow.
I talked to Fred.
Fred spent a couple of hours with him.
And so we're going to get together first thing in the morning and Fred will give Al some— Now, don't have him go back over any earlier than that.
Just pick the things—
That's right, because I've got everything else.
Yes, sir.
And particularly, though, we cannot run, you must tell Bazaar and Garment, we have an inch on the papers.
They agree.
They agree 100%.
Yes, sir.
But we've got to get a positive answer on it so we don't let Cox make a hell of an issue out of the papers.
We're not trying to hide anything.
We're just saying that...
presidential papers, you know, are not subject to subpoena.
That's right.
Isn't that it?
That's right.
And they can't be.
Oh, no.
No way.
No way.
Never can give on that.
Okay.
Okay, sir.
It was a good day today.

NARA Description

On June 4, 1973, White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 10:50 pm to 10:53 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 039-085 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 39-85

Date: June 4, 1973
Time: 10:50 pm - 10:53 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The White House operator talked with the President.

       Incoming telephone call

The President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.

       Watergate
             -Ziegler’s schedule
                    -Trip to Paris
                    -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.
             -President’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                    -Buzhardt
                    -Archibald Cox’s statement, June 4
                            -President’s papers
             -President’s papers
                    -White House response
                            -Ziegler’s meeting with J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr. and Leonard Garment
                            -Testimony by individuals
                            -Gerald L. Warren’s statement, June 4
                            -Ziegler’s previous conversation with Haldeman
                            -Ziegler’s forthcoming meeting with Buzhardt, June 5
             -White House response
                    -John W. Dean, III
                    -Cox’s conflict with Sam J. Ervin, Jr.
                    -Samuel Dash’s conflict with Fred D. Thompson
                    -Forthcoming testimony
                    -Possible leaks
             -President’s conversation with Haldeman
                    -Haldeman’s recollections of conversations with Dean
             -Richard A. Moore
                    -Memoranda of conversation [memcons]
                                                -65-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                                Conversation No. 39-85 (cont’d)

              -Buzhardt
                     -Meeting with Dean
                     -Forthcoming meeting with Ziegler
                     -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
              -President’s papers
                     -Views of Buzhardt and Garment
                     -Cox
                     -Possible subpoena

Also recorded on June 5, 1973

  • 442-068 9:48 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:48 pm and 9:54 pm.
  • 039-080 9:54 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:54 pm and 10:04 pm.
  • 039-081 10:05 PM · 15 min — White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 10:05 pm to 10:20 pm.
  • 039-082 10:20 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:20 pm and 10:21 pm.
  • 039-083 10:21 PM · 49 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 10:21 pm to 10:22 pm.
  • 039-084 10:22 PM · 16 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:22 pm and 10:50 pm.
  • 039-086 10:53 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:53 pm and 11:16 pm.
  • 039-087 11:16 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 11:16 pm to 11:22 pm.

All 48 conversations from June 5, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 039-085, June 5, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/039-085 (accessed October 1, 2026).