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Conversation 040-020

TapeTape 40StartMonday, June 11, 1973 at 9:07 PMEndMonday, June 11, 1973 at 9:23 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Buzhardt, J. Fred, Jr.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AI Summary

President Nixon and J. Fred Buzhardt discussed legal strategy regarding the upcoming Watergate hearings, specifically focusing on coordinating with Fred D. Thompson for the cross-examination of John Dean. Buzhardt reported on his recent meetings with Thompson and Henry Petersen, highlighting the potential for shifting the committee's focus toward Democratic campaign financing and the increasingly political nature of the hearings. The participants emphasized the need to prepare a detailed chronology of the President's interactions with Dean to challenge his anticipated testimony and mitigate potential legal damage.

Watergate hearingsJohn W. Dean IIIFred D. ThompsonHenry E. PetersenCross-examination strategyArchibald CoxImmunity
AudioNARA Description

On June 11, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr. talked on the telephone from 9:07 pm to 9:23 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 040-020 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 40-20
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                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                       (rev. March-2011)

Date: June 11, 1973
Time: 9:07 pm - 9:23 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.

      Watergate
           -Buzhardt’s meeting with Fred D. Thompson
                -Cross-examinations
                -John W. Dean, III
                      -June 15 appearance in private session
                      -Thompson’s preparation
                            -Another meeting with Buzhardt
                      -Use immunity
                            -Archibald Cox
                      -Testimony
                            -Date
                            -Leaks
                -Thompson’s cooperation with White House
                      -Knowledge of Dean’s role
                      -Investigation of Democrats
                            -Buzhardt’s cooperation
                            -Financing
                                   -Timing
                -Dean
                      -Information on testimony
                      -Conversation with Samuel Dash
                      -Forthcoming Grand Jury testimony
                            -Cox
                                   -Subpoena
                                          -Dean’s response
           -Dean
                -Letter from Harold Titus, May 22
                      -Immunity
           -Buzhardt’s meeting with Henry E. Petersen
                -Memorandum
                      -E. Howard Hunt, Jr. documents given to L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III
                -Petersen’s knowledge of Daniel Ellsberg break-in
                      -Earl J. Silbert’s previous conversation with Dean
                      -President’s information
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                NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  (rev. March-2011)

                    -Dean’s information
                           -Immunity
                                  -Date
                           -Hunt
              -Dean
                    -Possible compromise of Grand Jury testimony
                    -Conversations with President
                           -Contradiction
              -Cox
                    -Jurisdiction
                    -Relationship with Kennedy’s
                    -Possible subpoena of Petersen
              -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] interview of Petersen
                    -Peterson’s response
              -Petersen’s conversations with President
                    -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman
              -Dean
                    -Possible immunity
              -Cox
                    -Relationships with Petersen and prosecutors
                           -Titus
                    -Knowledge
              -Dean
              -Ehrlichman
                    -Reaction to subpoena of Maurice H. Stans in summer 1972
                    -Relations with prosecutors and Cox
                           -Compared to Haldeman and Dean
              -Dean’s actions
                    -Ehrlichman
         -Buzhardt’s meeting with Thompson
              -Thompson’s role in hearings
              -Samuel J. Ervin, Jr., Dash
              -Howard H. Baker, Jr.
                    -Possible actions
              -Lowell P. Weicker
                    -Staff member

*****************************************************************
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                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     (rev. March-2011)

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
[Previous Deed of Gift Privacy (D) rereviewed on 08/12/2019. Segment will remain closed.]
[Privacy]
[040-020-w001]
[Duration: 2s]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1

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     Watergate
          -Chronology of President’s conversations with Dean
          -Dean
                -Possible Ervin Committee appearance, June 15
                      -Use immunity
                      -Contempt charges
                -Forthcoming Grand Jury appearance
          -Ervin Committee
                -Witness schedule
                      -Herbert L. Porter
                      -Stans
                      -Jeb Stuart Magruder
                      -Dean
                      -Forthcoming Brezhnev visit
                -Thompson
                      -Conversation with Buzhardt
                      -Relationship with Dash
                -Ervin Committee
                      -Relations between Democratic and Republican members
                      -Edward J. Gurney
                -Thompson
                      -Conversation with Buzhardt
                            -Testimony of Dean, Charles W. Colson, Haldeman, and
                             Ehrlichman
                                  -TV coverage
                            -Length of hearings
                            -Focus on Democrats finances
                                  -Cooperation of Buzhardt
                                              -20-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      (rev. March-2011)
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I have Mr. B...
I have Mr. Buzard for you.
Oh, thank you.
Hi, Fred.
Yes, sir.
You had a long day.
Well, not too long today, sir.
I just arrived home.
I'm sorry I wasn't... All right, that's right.
No, I just called five minutes ago.
Give me a brief report.
Well, it was a pretty good afternoon all in all, Mr. President.
I found...
Thompson, most cooperative, feeling more Republican every day.
Really?
So he tells me.
Perfectly prepared to assist in really doing a cross-examination.
He thinks, well, he knows the earliest they'll get seen in a private session under oath is Friday.
Private session under oath.
They always put these witnesses in.
They bring them in an executive session.
They have one senator come in and swear them.
Yeah.
And then they cross-examine him on the oath before they put him on in the public session.
I see.
So this is the procedure they propose to use.
Mm-hmm.
So that gives us until Thursday to get with Thompson.
Right.
And he wants to get together Thursday night and spend most of the evening preparing for this.
All right.
Oh, just in case they're going to get him Friday.
They do think he'll testify under the use of immunity.
Oh, they do?
Of course, that depends on whether Cox appeals this thing.
They will not get Dean on the stand this week, but they think they'll get him on next week.
We'll all leak out anyway.
Friday, don't you think?
It probably will.
Sure.
But if they've got him under oath, you know, that's...
Sorry, what's that?
If they've finally got him under oath,
uh thompson will work with us so that uh does he realize that dean has some problems oh yes sir quite a few you know there's quite a few inconsistencies he has problems of his own all the way across the board right uh he is willing to work with us he is also now
willing to work with us on shifting some focus to the Democrats.
He's finally made up his mind.
He's got to start looking at some of their stuff.
I mentioned to him casually that while it wasn't our primary effort, I could be of some help to him.
And I think we'll be able to shift the focus a little bit.
And we've got some leads on that, too, incidentally.
Good.
Have you?
Yes, sir.
Good.
I think it's well to mix the mix a little bit here.
Good.
I think we'll be able to look at some of the financing on the other side a little bit hard.
We should.
They raised $34 million.
They don't get that for nothing.
We've got a couple of leads I will follow up on after we get.
set on this Dean thing.
I don't want to dissipate our efforts at the time.
That's right, that's right, that's right.
That should come later.
I've got some leads we can work on when the time comes.
So he was, he was, he's feeling quite Republican on this.
I suspect we'll be able to find out fairly promptly, you know, what it is the Dean said.
Right.
That's what we need.
He has only talked to Dash so far.
Dean has only talked today so far.
He is refusing.
Cox called him before the grand jury on a subpoena.
Cox did when?
Apparently today.
Yeah.
And apparently Dean's going to have to take the Fifth Amendment before the grand jury before it goes up to the hearings.
That's in the paper tonight.
That's good.
Incidentally, you probably heard about this Titus letter, the 22nd.
you know about that no sir titus wrote dean a letter in the 22nd week that he couldn't grant immunity because he was guilty of obstruction of justice i knew about that yes apparently that'll be in the papers yes uh then uh after finishing with thompson i went by and had a long problem with henry peterson right uh i think we misread that memorandum
uh that you had the thing about mid-march there referred to was really referring to the hunt documents which were given to pat gray the first time the henry learned of the ellsberg thing was when silver told him and the first indication silver had was from dean he is the one that put that whole thing in the open i see but dean you see dean had
had mentioned it to me in oh the 17th of march or the 13th i don't know which and i just assumed that he passed it on to them from that memorandum but anyway right he apparently didn't until the sixth or day or two after mr president when he was bargaining for the immunity
and he offered them this without telling them the details, and he never did tell them the details, but he offered them the proof on this if they would grant him immunity.
I see.
Well, they turned him down instead, but having deduced that Hunt was involved, they went back then and questioned Hunt.
Right.
That's how they got at the thing.
I see.
Dean told them enough to give them a handle on Hunt.
I see.
Interestingly, Henry says, and I'm glad to believe him, he said that Dean never compromised him or never tried, really.
He said, in fact, he was put off very easy.
When he asked him what they were doing, he could merely tell him the grand jury is
that they talked to so-and-so and so-and-so about so-and-so.
I see.
And he said he never really gave him any information out of the grand jury.
Dean, of course, says otherwise to me, but that's irrelevant.
Right, right.
So I suspect Henry will stand right there.
Henry's extremely upset about Cox coming in there and having such a wide jurisdiction.
Right.
He says it's like turning the whole old Kennedy clan loose.
uh turning the justice department over to him that's right and he's extremely upset about this his animosity with costa showing very firmly you know he feels very strongly about it right uh he said there does he think he'll be called
He doesn't know.
He thinks Cox will call him.
Cox, of course, already has made some very accusatory statements toward him.
They sent the FBI to interview him.
Oh, my God.
Just really made him a piece of... Oh, God.
You know, he said, who the hell is the FBI coming to investigate me?
I'm the one that tells them who to investigate.
I know.
And he's told everything, and he's... My God.
Henry Peterson is a guy that came to me on the 15th of...
April and said, you've got to get rid of Harlem and Ehrlichman.
Good heavens, I mean, what more do you want?
But he is very indignant, extremely so.
He confirmed the conversations you told me about.
He told you on the 27th, you know, that whatever you had to do, you might as well not wait any longer.
Right, on Friday.
Right.
He didn't think they couldn't reach any agreement with him.
He was demanding absolute immunity, and he just didn't feel they could give it to him.
Right.
Does he think Cox is going to give him absolute immunity?
He doesn't know.
His relations with Cox are very poor.
I think whatever information he gets, he gets largely through the prosecutors, to whom he's fairly close.
They kind of feel like they're in the same position Henry is, and they feel almost as much animosity toward Cox as he does.
They take the attitude that Cox doesn't have any idea what the case is about.
He doesn't know what evidence is there and what isn't.
And apparently Cox recognizes himself.
He doesn't have enough to relieve him.
deal at this point.
He doesn't know.
So Henry did say that on one occasion, he said that Dean never gave him a hard time.
He said on one case, John Erlitton gave him a hard time about subpoenaing Stans last summer.
He said they had quite a go-around about this.
He said he went right ahead with it.
I didn't know about that, of course, but that's all right.
This very perceptible animosity toward John Early among the prosecutors and Cox comes through loud and clear.
I see.
I'd say if they were focalizing on one man,
focusing on one man, it would be John Early, much more so than Bob Hawkins.
Or even Dean.
Good God, even Dean?
Even Dean.
After everything he did?
After everything he did, they still...
Separation of perjury, going to tell the CIA to put him on the payroll and all that?
They all believed that Dean was going to, and this is their opinion.
They all believed that he was doing it at Early's instruction.
Well... You know, and that's a...
I'm sure Dean has led them in that direction.
Yeah.
Well, Ehrlichman is the only man that can answer that, and he will.
He is.
I'm sure he will.
But both visits were very useful.
Good.
Because he gave me some details on how things happened down there.
And Thompson, of course, because he was far more cooperative, really, than I expected him to be.
He's willing to go, you know, pretty much the distance now.
And he said he realized his responsibility was going to have to be as a Republican increasingly.
And he realizes that the urban at all and days are being totally political, doesn't he?
Right.
It is just getting to be a political dogfight.
Does his boss realize that?
Does Baker think that?
He said Baker's aware of it, but he was quite candid with us.
He thinks Baker will move much more slowly than he will let Thompson move.
So he said it's obvious I'm going to have to carry the ball, and he'll gauge by what the reaction is to Thompson as to how far he gets in.
That's his summary of it.
uh he explained what the problem was with weichert uh he said weichert man on the staff he is you know the man he sponsored is very confident and very good and a totally reliable man he said however he does have to brief weichert and then he says weichert briefs his press man who is
who spends his time painting the major newspapers with whatever he can get his hands on.
Sure.
That's the major leak.
A Likert's press man, actually.
A Likert's press man.
Well, that's no surprise.
No, that's no surprise, although it's interesting to land the road.
That's right.
Uh-huh.
And they've gotten pretty well tapped.
Well, that's about the summary of how far we've
I got this afternoon.
Good.
Again, working on that chronology for the, on which to build a dean cross-examination.
That's the thing to do.
And I think we'll kind of concentrate on that in the next couple of days.
Good.
And get it shaped up.
Well, they may not get him Friday.
You never know.
They may not, but I think we want to be as prepared as possible.
Because, you know, if they get him Friday, that means that he will accept the use immunity, in other words.
They don't believe he has any choice.
Either that or he takes contempt.
Is that it?
Right.
Either that or he has to fight the contempt charges.
Mm-hmm.
When will Dean go before the grand jury tomorrow?
Either tomorrow or Friday or Thursday.
They will finish Porter tomorrow.
Then they will probably get to Stans late in the afternoon or mid-afternoon.
They think Stans may run one day.
They really don't expect that lengthy a testimony from him.
And they think they may get to Magruder sometime Wednesday afternoon.
They think Magruder will last through Thursday.
Oh, at least.
And they anticipate that Dean will take three days.
And of course, if we can get in some good cross-examination, he might even take longer.
This would, of course, Dean on the stand next week
their plans work fine put them on and uh well i think the sooner we can get him on the butter that's right i don't care whether someone when the brush tip is here and that's that's their problem not ours and i explained to him he didn't know about his uh procedure he agreed you know i told him we weren't thinking about making any requests that's right and he agreed thoroughly you know so he's
I think Dash has treated him a little... Cavalierly.
Cavalierly, and that's helped.
There's very definitely a good bit of friction going between the Republican and the Democrat states.
More of that, the better.
Apparently, Gurney is beginning to get his back up a little bit.
Is he?
I wonder why.
I don't know.
It may be reactions from home.
It may be reactions from home.
But, you know, if you look back historically, Gurney has worked well with an investigating committee.
They're usually developed for some people.
He's pretty touchy.
And he perceives slight very rapidly.
And, of course, I suspect that he's tired of seeing the Republicans batted because he's got an election coming up.
Bet you'll have an election in a state where I'm very strong.
Right.
Which bothers him.
They do anticipate, interestingly enough, he said that all of them are convinced that once they punish people like Dean, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Colson,
that they'll lose their television coverage.
They sure will.
That's totally predictable.
They will not cover them anymore.
So he sees it falling down into a rather dragged-out session, and that's when he hopes to get the focus moved around a little bit.
Yeah.
Get some Democratic money.
Yeah.
Well, that's all right.
We'll do our best.
Anyway, we'll help him with that, too, if we can.
Yeah.
Okay, Fred.
All right.
Thank you, sir.
Bye.
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