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Conversation 040-086

TapeTape 40StartWednesday, June 13, 1973 at 9:41 PMEndWednesday, June 13, 1973 at 9:53 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Colson, Charles W.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On June 13, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 9:41 pm to 9:53 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 040-086 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 40-86

Date: June 13, 1973
Time: 9:41 pm - 9:53 pm
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                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     (rev. March-2011)

Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Charles W. Colson.

     President’s speech on economy
           -Peter J. Brennan and Frank E. Fitzsimmon’s role
           -Albert E. Sindlinger’s role
                 -Colson’s conversation
           -Colson’s praise
           -Freeze
           -President’s delivery
                             -Julie Nixon Eisenhower, [Dwight] David Eisenhower, II, Thelma
                  C. (“Pat”) Nixon
           -Gasoline and food prices
                 -John B. Connally, George P. Shultz
           -John W. Chancellor’s commentary
                 -Shultz
                 -President’s reaction to Chancellor
           -Leadership

     Vietnam negotiations
          -Paris communique
                -significance
          -President’s messages to Nguyen Van Thieu
                -Aid to South Vietnam
                -Effect

     Watergate
          -Compared to other issues
                -Forthcoming Leonid I. Brezhnev visit
                -End of draft
                -Accomplishments
                      -Reduction of casualties
                      -Return of Prisoners of War [POWs]
          -Maurice Stans
                -Testimony
          -Ervin Committee
                -Howard H. Baker, Jr. Edward J. Gurvey, and Samuel J. Ervin, Jr.
          -John W. Dean, III
                -Washington Star story, June 13
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       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           (rev. March-2011)

             -Colson
      -Transactional immunity
             -Archibald Cox, prosecutors
      -Use immunity
             -Perjury, confession
      -Use immunity
             -John J. Sirica
             -Grand Jury testimony
                   -Seymour Glanzer, Earl Silbert
                   -Fifth Amendment
             -Effect
      -Washington Star story, June 13
             -Colson
-Colson
      -Work on White House staff
      -Dean
      -Support of President
-Dean
      -Forthcoming Ervin Committee interview, June 15
             -White House response
                   -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.
      -President’s possible response
      -Allegations concerning William Bittman payoffs
      -Position
      -Newsweek
             -Judas Iscariot
      -Image
      -News pictures in New York Times, Washington Star, and Newsweek
      -Views of Cox and Samuel Dash
      -Views of prosecutors
             -Conversations with Colson
             -Indictment
      -Role in cover-up
             -Motive
                   -President’s knowledge
                                -Request to Lt. Gen. Vernon A. Walters concerning
               Central Intelligence Agency [CIA] payroll
                   -John D. Ehrlichman
-Elliott L. Richardson
      -President’s evaluation
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             NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                               (rev. March-2011)

           -Statement concerning President’s need for lawyer
           -Meeting with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
           -Tenure
           -Actions
           -Meeting with Haig
           -Responsibilities
                  -Cox
           -Views concerning Clarence Kelley
                  -Haig
     -Kelley
           -Blacks’ view
           -Relationship with President
           -[First name unknown] Reaff [sp?]
           -Richardson’s views
                  -Press story
                  -Jonathan Moore
     -Richardson
           -1964 campaign in Massachusetts
           -Boston Herald-Traveler
           -Tenure
           -Actions
     -Ervin Committee hearings
           -Colson’s possible testimony
                  -Calls to committee
           -Witness list
                  -Jeb Stuart Magruder
                        -Colson
                  -Dean
                        -Colson
     -Colson’s possible testimony
           -Calls to committee
           -Press stories

President’s speech on national economy
      -Colson’s call to Sindlinger
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I guess I wanted you to tell our friend Sindlinger that, just as I talked to Pete Brennan and Frank Fitzsimmons and told them, that I only did it because he advised it.
Well, it was beautiful, Mr. President.
It was right on the money.
I mean, just exactly.
Well, I think the important thing was not just the freeze, which was important, but as David and
and Julie and Mrs. Nixon both all agreed, was the attitude.
You know, as Julie said, you know, you were almost cocky, but she liked it.
But I deliberately, as you noticed, Chuck, I delivered it fast, tough.
I thought, God darn it, I'm sick of this crap.
Did you get that feeling, or don't you think we needed a little of that at this time?
Oh, absolutely, Mr. President, that's what I've been saying.
It was upbeat at the beginning and upbeat at the ending.
And I don't like controls any better than you do, but it was exactly what the American people needed to hear right now.
You think so?
Oh, God.
And you hit it right in the two places where they're grumbling the most, gasoline prices and food.
Yeah.
Oh, John Connolly came throwing both on the gas prices.
but i tell you it practically killed schultz but he but he took it and swallowed i could tell uh tonight listening to uh john chancellor on the commentary afterwards that schultz had had a tough time buying this but oh the hell was chancellor the most important thing mr president which which is purely psychological hasn't got a damn thing to do with the economy has anything to do with prices leadership yes sir yeah the american people saw their president
incidentally we had a good day too you know we had this although only the sophisticates were understandable we had a damn good agreement in parish you know oh i think well that communique is fantastic it's uh it doesn't mean that peace is here but it does mean we've improved it we and i and it would happen only because over for the last five days in addition these other things i've been sending the most
caustic message to q i've told i told him yesterday in the message i said he either signed or i'd stop all aid and he signed that's the way that's the way to bring him to terms now things are taking a very different turn mr president you feel that yeah oh yeah all around uh
On the international front, I thought the way you brought prisoners in tonight was tremendous.
I thought the...
Right.
Bill's up to visit.
The end of the draft, the fact that this is the first time in 12 years that we've been... Nobody's being killed.
The prisoners are home.
We've got to remind people of that, Chuck.
We've done great things.
And you think of this stinking damn Watergate.
Oh, hell.
How does it compare?
They tell me, incidentally, that Stans has been a good witness.
I haven't heard, but... Stans has been a superb witness.
Has he?
Yeah.
I don't watch this crap, but I do.
Oh, my God, you shouldn't.
Yeah.
But, you know, he's an honest man, Chuck.
A lot of our people are honest.
Well, what he's got, basically, he's got some guts.
He just sat there and he dished it right back to him.
And, of course, he caused Baker to finally come out of his shell.
Even Gurney, I understand, finally took on Irvin.
Oh, God, Gurney was tough today.
Gurney was really tough.
Andrew...
now we're going to get a little time i don't know whether you saw that star piece tonight no what is it well it had a big piece that dean and i are now pitted against each other on the early edition they cut it out of the last edition i'll put it against each other incidentally though on dean it's a curious apparently cox has decided not to give him transactional immunity is that true no that's right
Remember, I mentioned to you Sunday, the prosecutors hate his guts.
Yeah.
And then under the circumstances then, Dean has got a real problem with use of immunity.
He's got to be careful because he could either get, first, well, on the other, first he could get perjury.
That's right.
The second thing is, though, that he might want to confess to as much as he could.
So that he avoids the other.
Now, would that be a... And poisons a trial.
That's what they taught me his strategy is.
Is that right?
Won't help him a bit, you see, because what they did, the moment that Sirica gave him use, the Glanzer and Silbert called him in before the grand jury, asked him every question.
And he took the Fifth Amendment.
And that means that they will be able to establish that they had the evidence before he...
Oh.
Yeah.
Well, you don't want to be pitted against anybody, Chuck.
Doggone it, I don't want you hurting this thing, you know that?
I don't want you hurt.
No, the hell it doesn't.
You're our man, and you and...
I mean, you know, I stand with all my people.
Doggone it, you fought the battle, and we know you've had to do some things that were...
They end up parting for us, and I'm not going to let this little tip squeak knock you down.
But you passed this way once in this world, and my great satisfaction is seeing what you're doing for the country, and that's all I really care about.
The thing with Dean is that I've met him head on.
He'll say some terrible things, I imagine, when he goes up Friday, and we've got to be prepared.
I've got Bazaar and all prepared to...
put out a brief one-sentence disclaimer, but that's about all we're going to do.
I don't think we ought to get...
The president ought to get in a fight with John Dean.
What do you think?
Absolutely not.
It'd be the worst thing to do.
Because he's going to charge that I told him to pay off Bittman and all that.
But on the other hand, Bittman's got a problem here, hasn't he?
By the way...
He isn't going to agree to that, is he?
No, sir.
No.
He should deny it.
Dean is going to be out there all by himself.
Really?
Yes, sir.
And when even Newsweek labels him as a turncoat, then you know he's in trouble.
A Judas.
He's a Judas in a turncoat.
Well, they can't...
They just can't make him...
They can't make them well.
You don't think so?
No, sir.
I had a whole group of people from around the country yesterday.
Yeah, yeah.
You really don't think you can make them well?
No, no.
They can't rehabilitate them.
And his pictures are terrible.
The one on the Times on Sunday was terrible.
You told me about that, yeah.
The one on the Star tonight was terrible.
And the photo editors were helping us to...
They had two pictures of me and one of him.
His looked, I thought, awful.
He just looked a little deceitful.
Then Newsweek had that thing of him, the preppy, you know, the boy from prep school routine.
They have not built him up, and I don't think they can.
They really ought to, though, Chuck, because he's their witness.
Cox, they tell me, wants to build him up, and so does Dash, but they don't know how.
Isn't that it?
Yes, but Cox can't, Mr. President, because...
The prosecutors won't let him?
The prosecutors will not let him.
You were telling me something else, what was it?
Yeah, well, I've been in some communication with the...
Well, they've got to indict him to let him off.
They may not have many more to indict if they let him off.
Well, they ought to get him because, God damn it, he's guilty as hell.
He was a central figure.
Now, understand, we all know...
He may have thought he was doing it for the cause.
Yeah, but he deceived a lot of people.
But he deceived all of us.
He deceived me, he deceived you.
I was, I hadn't the slightest idea what had happened.
I didn't know he'd gone to, I mean, particularly the CIA thing.
To ask Walters to put them on the CIA payroll is unbelievable.
Now, you know, you wouldn't have asked Ehrlichman, I wouldn't.
That's the damnedest thing I ever heard of.
It sounds like a kid.
Well, there's a judgment factor that comes into play.
You see, John is just...
Oh, that explains it.
That explains it.
Well, you learn to take a little bit of the rough knocks, and John's never had any...
I think he's sort of a pretty boy that had all the rest.
Incidentally, I have not been pleased with Richardson.
No, I don't... Not at all.
And I know you've been very high on him, but I thought his saying the president ought to get himself his own personal lawyer and all that, his saying that...
He, uh, you know, he said two or three things that have been very disturbing to me, and we have really, and Haggis brought him in on the carpet.
He either shapes up, he's either the Attorney General for the President of the United States, or he's out.
And I put him out damn fast, too.
We don't owe him a damn thing.
He is a very tough politician.
Yeah, I know.
You've always said that, but he hasn't acted that way lately, Chuck.
No, I agree.
He hasn't, from what he's said.
I've been appalled at it, frankly.
But he may be building up the...
He may be trying to build up a record.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Well, he can't build up against the president.
He can't... You see, the idea that...
that he told Haig a couple days ago that he ought to keep a little distance between him and the president.
And Haig just raised hell with him.
He says, you don't, you kid yourself.
I mean, it's good to have Al, because Al's so tough.
Oh, he's great.
Yeah.
But, you know, Elliott can't do this, Chuck.
He can't do this.
No.
I mean, he can appoint this jackass Cox, but then, but Elliott Richardson is the Attorney General of the United States.
Right.
And, incidentally, we really rolled him on one thing.
You know, he violently opposed the appointment of our FBI guy.
Violently.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, good God.
Oh, God, yes.
And because he wanted a Harvard or some Ivy League dean or criminologist.
And I turned him down.
And so we got this nice cop.
out there who was an FBI guy in a graduate law school, and he violently froze him, and Al Haig just rolled him.
And so I want, if you've got a chance to talk to anybody, be sure you get the story out.
Elliot Richardson put it out, and I rolled him.
I rolled him.
I think it's marvelous, Mr. President, because what you have is a guy who is, he froze the boy, he's Irish.
Secondly, he's middle America.
Thirdly, he's got all the credentials.
He's FBI, cop, 25% decrease in crime.
And the blacks don't like him.
And finally...
I don't know the guy, so there's no problem of influence.
Well, he's a perfect appointment.
Yeah.
I've heard from some of my FBI friends around the country, like the regional fellow down in Atlanta.
What do they say?
Oh, they're thrilled at that.
They think he's the best appointment.
Well, get on a little story.
When I say get it out, you do your best judgment so it isn't... No, I...
I just say that...
that Elliot Richardson violently opposed.
He did.
Oh, we had one hell of a time with him.
Well, that's a shame, because...
I don't care.
No shame.
God damn it.
Elliot's over there with Jonathan Moore.
What the hell do you think they'd come up with?
What in the name of God do you think they'd come up with?
You know, Mr. President, that the dirtiest campaign in Massachusetts political history was conducted in 1964 by Elliot Richardson.
The Boston Herald traveler, the staunch bastion of conservative republicanism, blasted him in a front-page editorial.
I mean, Elliott is a cut fighter, and... Well, he better start fighting for me, or he's going to be out.
Well, I'd get him out if he... Yeah, and fast, and he's got to get that message.
Well, if he isn't willing to play that... That's right.
I want him to do right, but he must not cut the president.
Oh, God, I... Yeah, I'd be...
Knowing him as long as I have, I'd be just damn surprised if he did.
Well, he has so far.
Yeah, I agree.
So far, he's been very bad.
What he has said, I have not...
I've been kind of horrified.
Well, in any event, they haven't called you yet, have they?
I've called them twice this week asking to come, and they don't want me.
Yeah, they're scared of you.
Oh, hello.
They know damn well what I'm going to say.
Yeah.
You mean the committee?
Sure.
They don't want me.
Yeah.
They want me eventually.
So they're going to get, this week they got Magruder and then Dean.
Yeah, Magruder will try to drag me into it.
Dean will try to drag me.
Oh, of course, of course, Chuck.
Good God, we know that.
Let him drag.
But I called twice.
Yeah.
Asked to come up.
Maybe you should make a point of that to the press.
I have.
All right.
I have.
It was...
Okay.
Somebody picked that up this week.
It was... You have something...
Send me your call and call me back if you let us know what he thought of the whole damn thing.
Would you do that?
I'll...
I'll do that.
I'm not talking to him directly.
I think it's not wise for me at the moment.
All right.
No, I'll call him.
Would you mind?
I'll call him and call you back.
Fine.
Yes, sir.
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