Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 040-086
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 1973 at 9:41 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Colson, Charles W.
Recording device: White House Telephone
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/040-086

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] I guess I wanted you to tell our friend Sindlinger that, just as I talked to Pete Brennan and Frank Fitzsimmons and told them, that I only did it because he advised it.
[0:12] Well, it was beautiful, Mr. President.
[0:14] It was right on the money.
[0:16] I mean, just exactly.
[0:18] Well, I think the important thing was not just the freeze, which was important, but as David and
[0:27] and Julie and Mrs. Nixon both all agreed, was the attitude.
[0:32] You know, as Julie said, you know, you were almost cocky, but she liked it.
[0:38] But I deliberately, as you noticed, Chuck, I delivered it fast, tough.
[0:43] I thought, God darn it, I'm sick of this crap.
[0:46] Did you get that feeling, or don't you think we needed a little of that at this time?
[0:50] Oh, absolutely, Mr. President, that's what I've been saying.
[0:53] It was upbeat at the beginning and upbeat at the ending.
[0:56] And I don't like controls any better than you do, but it was exactly what the American people needed to hear right now.
[1:02] You think so?
[1:02] Oh, God.
[1:03] And you hit it right in the two places where they're grumbling the most, gasoline prices and food.
[1:09] Yeah.
[1:09] Oh, John Connolly came throwing both on the gas prices.
[1:12] but i tell you it practically killed schultz but he but he took it and swallowed i could tell uh tonight listening to uh john chancellor on the commentary afterwards that schultz had had a tough time buying this but oh the hell was chancellor the most important thing mr president which which is purely psychological hasn't got a damn thing to do with the economy has anything to do with prices leadership yes sir yeah the american people saw their president
[1:39] incidentally we had a good day too you know we had this although only the sophisticates were understandable we had a damn good agreement in parish you know oh i think well that communique is fantastic it's uh it doesn't mean that peace is here but it does mean we've improved it we and i and it would happen only because over for the last five days in addition these other things i've been sending the most
[2:00] caustic message to q i've told i told him yesterday in the message i said he either signed or i'd stop all aid and he signed that's the way that's the way to bring him to terms now things are taking a very different turn mr president you feel that yeah oh yeah all around uh
[2:18] On the international front, I thought the way you brought prisoners in tonight was tremendous.
[2:21] I thought the...
[2:22] Right.
[2:22] Bill's up to visit.
[2:23] The end of the draft, the fact that this is the first time in 12 years that we've been... Nobody's being killed.
[2:28] The prisoners are home.
[2:29] We've got to remind people of that, Chuck.
[2:30] We've done great things.
[2:32] And you think of this stinking damn Watergate.
[2:34] Oh, hell.
[2:34] How does it compare?
[2:36] They tell me, incidentally, that Stans has been a good witness.
[2:39] I haven't heard, but... Stans has been a superb witness.
[2:41] Has he?
[2:42] Yeah.
[2:42] I don't watch this crap, but I do.
[2:44] Oh, my God, you shouldn't.
[2:45] Yeah.
[2:46] But, you know, he's an honest man, Chuck.
[2:48] A lot of our people are honest.
[2:50] Well, what he's got, basically, he's got some guts.
[2:52] He just sat there and he dished it right back to him.
[2:54] And, of course, he caused Baker to finally come out of his shell.
[2:58] Even Gurney, I understand, finally took on Irvin.
[3:01] Oh, God, Gurney was tough today.
[3:02] Gurney was really tough.
[3:04] Andrew...
[3:05] now we're going to get a little time i don't know whether you saw that star piece tonight no what is it well it had a big piece that dean and i are now pitted against each other on the early edition they cut it out of the last edition i'll put it against each other incidentally though on dean it's a curious apparently cox has decided not to give him transactional immunity is that true no that's right
[3:26] Remember, I mentioned to you Sunday, the prosecutors hate his guts.
[3:29] Yeah.
[3:30] And then under the circumstances then, Dean has got a real problem with use of immunity.
[3:35] He's got to be careful because he could either get, first, well, on the other, first he could get perjury.
[3:42] That's right.
[3:43] The second thing is, though, that he might want to confess to as much as he could.
[3:47] So that he avoids the other.
[3:48] Now, would that be a... And poisons a trial.
[3:51] That's what they taught me his strategy is.
[3:53] Is that right?
[3:53] Won't help him a bit, you see, because what they did, the moment that Sirica gave him use, the Glanzer and Silbert called him in before the grand jury, asked him every question.
[4:03] And he took the Fifth Amendment.
[4:05] And that means that they will be able to establish that they had the evidence before he...
[4:10] Oh.
[4:12] Yeah.
[4:18] Well, you don't want to be pitted against anybody, Chuck.
[4:20] Doggone it, I don't want you hurting this thing, you know that?
[4:23] I don't want you hurt.
[4:24] No, the hell it doesn't.
[4:27] You're our man, and you and...
[4:29] I mean, you know, I stand with all my people.
[4:31] Doggone it, you fought the battle, and we know you've had to do some things that were...
[4:35] They end up parting for us, and I'm not going to let this little tip squeak knock you down.
[4:39] But you passed this way once in this world, and my great satisfaction is seeing what you're doing for the country, and that's all I really care about.
[4:48] The thing with Dean is that I've met him head on.
[4:53] He'll say some terrible things, I imagine, when he goes up Friday, and we've got to be prepared.
[4:57] I've got Bazaar and all prepared to...
[4:59] put out a brief one-sentence disclaimer, but that's about all we're going to do.
[5:03] I don't think we ought to get...
[5:05] The president ought to get in a fight with John Dean.
[5:07] What do you think?
[5:07] Absolutely not.
[5:08] It'd be the worst thing to do.
[5:09] Because he's going to charge that I told him to pay off Bittman and all that.
[5:14] But on the other hand, Bittman's got a problem here, hasn't he?
[5:19] By the way...
[5:20] He isn't going to agree to that, is he?
[5:22] No, sir.
[5:23] No.
[5:23] He should deny it.
[5:24] Dean is going to be out there all by himself.
[5:27] Really?
[5:28] Yes, sir.
[5:28] And when even Newsweek labels him as a turncoat, then you know he's in trouble.
[5:33] A Judas.
[5:34] He's a Judas in a turncoat.
[5:36] Well, they can't...
[5:37] They just can't make him...
[5:39] They can't make them well.
[5:41] You don't think so?
[5:42] No, sir.
[5:43] I had a whole group of people from around the country yesterday.
[5:47] Yeah, yeah.
[5:48] You really don't think you can make them well?
[5:51] No, no.
[5:52] They can't rehabilitate them.
[5:53] And his pictures are terrible.
[5:54] The one on the Times on Sunday was terrible.
[5:55] You told me about that, yeah.
[5:56] The one on the Star tonight was terrible.
[5:58] And the photo editors were helping us to...
[6:03] They had two pictures of me and one of him.
[6:06] His looked, I thought, awful.
[6:07] He just looked a little deceitful.
[6:09] Then Newsweek had that thing of him, the preppy, you know, the boy from prep school routine.
[6:16] They have not built him up, and I don't think they can.
[6:20] They really ought to, though, Chuck, because he's their witness.
[6:24] Cox, they tell me, wants to build him up, and so does Dash, but they don't know how.
[6:28] Isn't that it?
[6:29] Yes, but Cox can't, Mr. President, because...
[6:31] The prosecutors won't let him?
[6:33] The prosecutors will not let him.
[6:35] You were telling me something else, what was it?
[6:37] Yeah, well, I've been in some communication with the...
[6:41] Well, they've got to indict him to let him off.
[6:48] They may not have many more to indict if they let him off.
[6:51] Well, they ought to get him because, God damn it, he's guilty as hell.
[6:58] He was a central figure.
[6:59] Now, understand, we all know...
[7:01] He may have thought he was doing it for the cause.
[7:04] Yeah, but he deceived a lot of people.
[7:06] But he deceived all of us.
[7:07] He deceived me, he deceived you.
[7:09] I was, I hadn't the slightest idea what had happened.
[7:12] I didn't know he'd gone to, I mean, particularly the CIA thing.
[7:16] To ask Walters to put them on the CIA payroll is unbelievable.
[7:21] Now, you know, you wouldn't have asked Ehrlichman, I wouldn't.
[7:24] That's the damnedest thing I ever heard of.
[7:26] It sounds like a kid.
[7:27] Well, there's a judgment factor that comes into play.
[7:30] You see, John is just...
[7:31] Oh, that explains it.
[7:43] That explains it.
[7:47] Well, you learn to take a little bit of the rough knocks, and John's never had any...
[7:51] I think he's sort of a pretty boy that had all the rest.
[7:53] Incidentally, I have not been pleased with Richardson.
[7:57] No, I don't... Not at all.
[7:59] And I know you've been very high on him, but I thought his saying the president ought to get himself his own personal lawyer and all that, his saying that...
[8:08] He, uh, you know, he said two or three things that have been very disturbing to me, and we have really, and Haggis brought him in on the carpet.
[8:16] He either shapes up, he's either the Attorney General for the President of the United States, or he's out.
[8:22] And I put him out damn fast, too.
[8:26] We don't owe him a damn thing.
[8:30] He is a very tough politician.
[8:34] Yeah, I know.
[8:35] You've always said that, but he hasn't acted that way lately, Chuck.
[8:38] No, I agree.
[8:39] He hasn't, from what he's said.
[8:42] I've been appalled at it, frankly.
[8:44] But he may be building up the...
[8:47] He may be trying to build up a record.
[8:48] I don't know.
[8:49] I don't know.
[8:49] Well, he can't build up against the president.
[8:52] He can't... You see, the idea that...
[8:55] that he told Haig a couple days ago that he ought to keep a little distance between him and the president.
[9:01] And Haig just raised hell with him.
[9:03] He says, you don't, you kid yourself.
[9:04] I mean, it's good to have Al, because Al's so tough.
[9:07] Oh, he's great.
[9:09] Yeah.
[9:09] But, you know, Elliott can't do this, Chuck.
[9:11] He can't do this.
[9:12] No.
[9:12] I mean, he can appoint this jackass Cox, but then, but Elliott Richardson is the Attorney General of the United States.
[9:20] Right.
[9:20] And, incidentally, we really rolled him on one thing.
[9:23] You know, he violently opposed the appointment of our FBI guy.
[9:27] Violently.
[9:27] Oh, is that right?
[9:28] Oh, good God.
[9:30] Oh, God, yes.
[9:31] And because he wanted a Harvard or some Ivy League dean or criminologist.
[9:39] And I turned him down.
[9:41] And so we got this nice cop.
[9:42] out there who was an FBI guy in a graduate law school, and he violently froze him, and Al Haig just rolled him.
[9:50] And so I want, if you've got a chance to talk to anybody, be sure you get the story out.
[9:54] Elliot Richardson put it out, and I rolled him.
[9:57] I rolled him.
[9:58] I think it's marvelous, Mr. President, because what you have is a guy who is, he froze the boy, he's Irish.
[10:02] Secondly, he's middle America.
[10:05] Thirdly, he's got all the credentials.
[10:08] He's FBI, cop, 25% decrease in crime.
[10:10] And the blacks don't like him.
[10:13] And finally...
[10:15] I don't know the guy, so there's no problem of influence.
[10:18] Well, he's a perfect appointment.
[10:19] Yeah.
[10:19] I've heard from some of my FBI friends around the country, like the regional fellow down in Atlanta.
[10:24] What do they say?
[10:24] Oh, they're thrilled at that.
[10:25] They think he's the best appointment.
[10:26] Well, get on a little story.
[10:29] When I say get it out, you do your best judgment so it isn't... No, I...
[10:33] I just say that...
[10:34] that Elliot Richardson violently opposed.
[10:38] He did.
[10:38] Oh, we had one hell of a time with him.
[10:40] Well, that's a shame, because...
[10:42] I don't care.
[10:42] No shame.
[10:43] God damn it.
[10:44] Elliot's over there with Jonathan Moore.
[10:46] What the hell do you think they'd come up with?
[10:48] What in the name of God do you think they'd come up with?
[10:50] You know, Mr. President, that the dirtiest campaign in Massachusetts political history was conducted in 1964 by Elliot Richardson.
[10:58] The Boston Herald traveler, the staunch bastion of conservative republicanism, blasted him in a front-page editorial.
[11:07] I mean, Elliott is a cut fighter, and... Well, he better start fighting for me, or he's going to be out.
[11:12] Well, I'd get him out if he... Yeah, and fast, and he's got to get that message.
[11:16] Well, if he isn't willing to play that... That's right.
[11:19] I want him to do right, but he must not cut the president.
[11:22] Oh, God, I... Yeah, I'd be...
[11:26] Knowing him as long as I have, I'd be just damn surprised if he did.
[11:29] Well, he has so far.
[11:30] Yeah, I agree.
[11:31] So far, he's been very bad.
[11:32] What he has said, I have not...
[11:35] I've been kind of horrified.
[11:36] Well, in any event, they haven't called you yet, have they?
[11:39] I've called them twice this week asking to come, and they don't want me.
[11:43] Yeah, they're scared of you.
[11:45] Oh, hello.
[11:46] They know damn well what I'm going to say.
[11:48] Yeah.
[11:49] You mean the committee?
[11:50] Sure.
[11:50] They don't want me.
[11:51] Yeah.
[11:51] They want me eventually.
[11:52] So they're going to get, this week they got Magruder and then Dean.
[11:56] Yeah, Magruder will try to drag me into it.
[11:58] Dean will try to drag me.
[11:59] Oh, of course, of course, Chuck.
[12:00] Good God, we know that.
[12:01] Let him drag.
[12:02] But I called twice.
[12:04] Yeah.
[12:05] Asked to come up.
[12:06] Maybe you should make a point of that to the press.
[12:08] I have.
[12:09] All right.
[12:09] I have.
[12:10] It was...
[12:11] Okay.
[12:11] Somebody picked that up this week.
[12:13] It was... You have something...
[12:14] Send me your call and call me back if you let us know what he thought of the whole damn thing.
[12:17] Would you do that?
[12:18] I'll...
[12:19] I'll do that.
[12:19] I'm not talking to him directly.
[12:21] I think it's not wise for me at the moment.
[12:22] All right.
[12:23] No, I'll call him.
[12:23] Would you mind?
[12:24] I'll call him and call you back.
[12:25] Fine.
[12:26] Yes, sir.