Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 42 › Conversation 042-009
Nixon phone call with Ford on Hale Boggs and J. Edgar Hoover
Tuesday, April 6, 1971 · 9:59 AM–10:06 AM ET · White House Telephone · 5 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Congressman Gerald Ford discuss their mounting concerns regarding House Majority Leader Hale Boggs, whom they characterize as mentally unstable and prone to substance abuse. Due to fears that Boggs cannot be trusted with sensitive information, the President decides to exclude him from an upcoming briefing with congressional leaders. Nixon instructs Ford to consult with Speaker Carl Albert to restructure the meeting to include only Ford and Albert from the House, ensuring that classified matters regarding Vietnam negotiations can be shared securely.
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Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hello?
Congressman Ford, Mr. President.
Good morning, Mr. President.
Hi, Jerry.
How are you?
What's the matter with your opposite number?
He's nuts.
My God, when I read the star last night, and incidentally I thought you made fine comment, but I said, well, Jesus, did you know that the FBI has not had a tap, not only on no congressman or no senator,
but not even anybody that has ever, the moment they crossed into that Capitol for 20, since 1924.
Did you know that?
I didn't know that, but I... Oh, Hoover's got the record.
I mean, this is the most ridiculous damn thing.
But the fellow is, he's on the sauce, isn't that it?
Well, I'm afraid that's right.
Or is he crazy?
I mean, he's...
He's either drinking too much or he's taking some pills that...
that are upsetting him mentally.
Last Thursday when we were getting the program for this week, he was mumbling.
He was almost incoherent.
It was very embarrassing to Carl and to everybody who was on the floor.
I hate to say this, but we've got to be awfully careful what we tell him.
Well, that's the problem.
One thing I called about you.
I'm afraid that we'd better not.
I was planning to have a meeting at 7 o'clock tomorrow night of the Big Five, but how the hell can I tell him?
That's only two hours before, though.
He can't do much damage.
No, he'd probably go out and screw off on that.
But I don't think I can ever tell him anything in confidence.
Well, I think you've got to be awfully careful anything that's classified.
I know.
Well, everything, frankly, everything I say is classified because they go out and quote the president and that becomes part of the record.
Well, anyway, I don't know.
Is this something that you could talk to Carl about in confidence and say, look,
I mean, in other words, I never have any problem meeting with you and Carl.
Right.
But, God, maybe that's the answer, that I'll meet with you and Carl, and I'm just not going to have this fellow down here because you can't have a nut, you know.
I mean, with Carl, you agree, he isn't ever going to leak anything.
Never.
He's a man of high principles.
Well, all right.
I'll leave it to you to talk to him, Jerry.
I'll talk to Carl.
Then I'll call you back or talk to Clark.
Well, I'll tell you what you do.
Why don't you, you can call me back, and if I'm not, I'm going to be doing some revenue sharing messages at around, at about 11 to 12.
But if you find, if you find that Carl feels that there's any doubt, then what we'll do is to just have you and Carl from the House, and just say we want only two from the House, and then I'll have only Mike and Scott from the Senate.
I think that's a proper dividing line.
After all, in a sense, the speaker is a partisan.
That's right.
And it would be like having the president pro tem added in.
We used to add Dick Russell for reasons, but we don't add Eleanor.
No.
So I think if I could have you and Carl, I'd feel perfectly free to talk any time, but that's what I really call you, but I don't feel I can talk in front of this fellow.
I mean, I think he's just off his rocker.
Let me talk to Carl, and I'll put it quite frankly.
Tell him that we'd like to have you down at 7 o'clock tomorrow, and I'll give you a complete fill-in, because there is something in great confidence, and I am going to tell you, that may not develop on the negotiating front.
But I just want to give you a little feel of it, you know.
Right.
All right, I'll talk to Carl.
But I would never do it if Boggs were there.
Well, I don't think you could under the present circumstances.
I'd have no problem with Mike.
Oh, no.
Okay.
All right, I'll... Fine, but I'm glad you... What do the other members think of his attack on Hoover?
I mean, understand, we all know Hoover's old and so forth and so on, and good God...
I mean, he's got to make up his own mind about the retirement thing.
We know that.
But on the other hand, gee, gods, you can't just damn the whole FBI for being Gestapo.
That's just ridiculous.
Well, I was just shocked when he took the floor.
Were the Democrats shocked, some of them?
Well, they just sat there with their mouths open.
Yeah.
And so I just off the cuff got up and made the comments that I made because...
I wish some Democratic got up, too.
Well...
It was right at the outset.
I see.
And there were very few members present.
Right.
And so the kind that would have spoken up, unfortunately, were not there.
Now tell your, incidentally, your little doves that are flying around in your coat over there to just pipe down, hold their horses, and...
wait until after they hear what I have to say.
Well, I gave a couple of them a good lecture yesterday.
Well, the whole point is this.
I mean, what the hell is it going to prove?
I mean, we know there are probably 25 that will sign something like that.
But the main point is we've got a hell of a lot more that won't.
And you were, incidentally, very good on the morning show.
I didn't see it, but I read the transcript.
Boy, you put it right to them.
Keep kicking them in you know where.
Okay.
All right, Mr. President.
Thank you.
NARA Description
On April 6, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Gerald R. Ford talked on the telephone from 9:59 am to 10:06 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 042-009 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 42-9
Date: April 6, 1971
Time: 9:59 am - 10:06 am
Location: White House Telephone
The President talked with Gerald R. Ford.
[See Conversation No. 245-5]
[Thomas] Hale Boggs
Boggs
-Article in Washington Star, April 5, 1971
-Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] wiretaps
-J. Edgar Hoover
-Health
-Carl B. Albert
-President's meeting with Congressional leaders
-Classified information
-Ford's possible meeting with Albert
-Ford's possible conversation with Clark MacGregor
-President's messages on revenue sharing
President's meeting with Congressional leaders
-Ford
-Albert
-Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield
-Hugh Scott
-Richard B. Russell
-Allen J. Ellender
-Boggs
-Vietnam negotiations
Boggs
-Attacks on Hoover
-Congressional reaction
-Democrats
-Ford's comments
House Republican "doves"
Ford’s commentsAlso recorded on April 6, 1971
- 042-005 9:20 AM · 4 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:20 am and 9:22 am.
- 042-006 9:22 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Michael J. ("Mike") Mansfield, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 9:22 am to 9:27 am.
- 042-007 9:27 AM · 2 min — H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, White House operator, and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:27 am and 9:59 am.
- 042-008 9:59 AM · 3 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 9:59 am.
- 245-003 9:59 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 9:59 am.
- 245-004 9:59 AM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 9:59 am.
- 245-005 9:59 AM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:59 am to 10:06 am.
- 245-006 10:05 AM · 55 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, Stephen B. Bull, and Michael J. ("Mike") Mansfield met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:05 am to 11:03 am.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 042-009, April 6, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/042-009 (accessed October 12, 2026).