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Hello.

Hello, Mr. President.

Do you want to take your time?

No, no.

I just wanted to tell you that you're going to testify at 10 o'clock?

Yep.

I think that, naturally, you'll probably get the most heat on that aid to Vietnam and concerned, but how to handle it is, of course, a problem.

I had a couple of thoughts.

First,

of course, to project that it's obviously premature, which, of course, is only a backup position.

It doesn't tackle the problem because it's very tough.

The second point is that

When they get into this business, what about other countries helping?

I mean, you, of course, are aware and actually will say that a number of countries have indicated an interest in helping, and we expect that this will be a multi-country aid program.

Now, as far as our putting the aid only through the multilateral organizations, I think we ought to avoid that because...

It may be that we won't have much of a string on it then, but it's true that that's what the Congress would have, but even when we do that, we still put up most of the dough.

And I think that we could, I think the answer that we ought to give is to say, well, that's something we'll examine.

The main thing is to see that this...

This responsibility is shared by a number of countries interested in the area.

We expect that to happen.

Now, the idea, of course, which I think is...

I don't think someone raised the idea that the Russians and the Chinese ought to help South Vietnam, of course, as you know, is about as ridiculous as we could have.

I don't know whether you...

I think you may just have to point out that they...

I noticed the Russians were kind of objecting to our helping the North.

Well, we have, of course, objections in spades to their coming in the South because they got in there.

That would be getting the ox and the chicken coop without any question.

The point that they make that I don't know whether they'll get down to the usual kind of demagoguery that, well, we don't want to do this if it...

if we're going to cut aid to the schools and the poor and all that sort of thing.

Yeah, they'll do that.

They did that in the House, but I don't think it's quite manageable.

Well, you know what I mean?

I don't want you to be in any spot.

For your information, I mean, you should know, I don't want to probably say this quite yet because I don't want to get the military to it, but I'm going to make them swallow this.

Whatever we have this year has got to be swallowed in the military budget, and it can be.

You know what I mean?

It's a pretty tight budget, but if I

With, you know, the ceasefire in Laos, for example, it's not insignificant in terms of a saving there, $200 or $300 million.

But we wouldn't be able to wheel it, in my opinion, if we came in and said, look, we've got to provide this aid, so this means we've got to squeeze all our domestic spending.

We have no plan to do that, whatever.

So you can, I don't know how you want to put it, I would say that...

Well, I can do that.

It depends on what the question is like.

But I want you to know that you can answer it with assurance that that's a problem.

You can just even say that, that it isn't going to be that there are no domestic budgets will be.

I don't mean that.

You see, of course, their argument is it's sort of a shades of what the conservatives were saying, are they?

The Republican isolationists were saying 25 years ago, they said, we ought to build the dam in Colorado rather than build a dam or rebuild a dam or a building in Germany and Japan.

And I think the most powerful argument really is to really take them back into history a bit.

that we've gone through all this before, and that the responsible voices prevailed, that we had great needs at home after World War II, and the very same needs we had now, even greater.

And so we spent billions rebuilding our former enemies, Germany and Japan, who, incidentally, had cost us a hell of a lot more casualties than here.

And what happened?

What happened is that they became constructive members of... Well, you know all those arguments.

Of course, these...

That's about it.

Now, I think on the other thing, to the extent that you can, if you can sort of keep them on the global thing, that after all, when you really come down to it, you're going on a... We didn't know what would come this particular day, but you're going on the day of the ceasefire in Laos.

And then I think you could say, too, that you say now there's going to be...

Tomorrow there's going to be a communique on China, which shows a continuing development of...

You know, good relations, because they want to know the one question, of course, that the reason I'm sort of going through this is I was preparing to do a press thing tomorrow myself, but I'm putting it off to Tuesday when I saw you were testifying.

But if I do it then, but anyway.

I sort of hoped you'd do it before.

I'd like to have you get in the action early on these things.

Well, I'm trying to as much as I can, but I can't.

I spoke to North Carolina yesterday, and I just didn't want to be out every minute.

You know, I've been out three times this week already.

But I'll be prepared.

It'll probably need a good smack on Tuesday.

I'll go no later than that, in any event.

Now, the point is, though, that when we look at the whole world scene, the more you can bring them back to that, I think it's important.

You're going to read a statement.

I've got a prepared statement, and that's the emphasis on it.

incidentally i talked to the to scott and aiken and uh after our meeting and you noticed scott put out a statement yesterday yes and mansfield has been very good both saying that we ought to keep quiet and tell the prisoners and i want to make the same point i'm not going to relate it to the prisoners but i'm going to say i think we ought to

be restrained in our comments, particularly during this 60-day period.

You might say that, and you also might say that the interests of all of us are the same.

The interest is peace.

And unless this, unless a program contributes to the United States' interest of a more peaceful world, we're not going to recommend it to the Congress.

That's what it's all about.

And I think you've got to put the monkey on their back now that if they don't support it, they're responsible for what happens.

That's really the truth.

I'm going to try to avoid getting involved in it too much, though it's really premature.

It is, I know.

Why should we argue about it before we've asked him for anything?

And we've made our point clear.

The main thing is, of course, I think on an individual basis, if we can...

knock off these, take on our guys one by one and say, look, hold your fire here because you're going to have to vote for it, particularly some of the damn Republicans.

Well, I think the Republicans are doing pretty well now.

Most of them are the Democrats.

Yeah.

But they're making it a pretty, just sort of a basically a partisan issue, you know.

And it's tough when guys like Tomage move out there, too, because he's demagoguing because he's coming up for election.

Yeah.

But you see, the kind of Democrats, Bill, you've got two problems.

One, you've got the conservative Democrats who supported us on the war, people like Tom H., who were kicking us on it.

And then on the other side, the people that were weeping these copious tears for the poor North Vietnamese, the Teddy Kennedys, and the McGoverns and the Muskys say, oh, no, no help for them now.

What in the name of God is that, huh?

Exactly.

Well, I think that the timing is excellent with this agreement in Laos, and it's not a bad agreement.

As a matter of fact, it'll never work.

Never work.

Well, you know, the same is true of the one with the Vietnamese, but it'll never work either, but at least as far as the agreement is concerned.

As of today, our bombing stops.

You know, that's driven Mansfield right up the wall.

So there's that.

I know.

You know, it's interesting, though, that everyone that comes back from Hanoi makes the same comment.

I've talked to Henry and Bill Sullivan and Frank Sievers all separately, the ones separately.

Well, they all said it's like going back into a society 30 years ago.

It's unbelievable how back they are.

It hasn't been a building built, you know, as if it's a primitive society.

Terrible.

I mean, when you contrast to Saigon...

Yeah, Henry made the point when I talked to him, he probably told you the same thing, that he said that if you go to Saigon and to Hanoi and you didn't come from the moon, you would have thought Saigon had just won the war and Hanoi had lost it.

That's right.

And frankly, that's true.

And Saigon, you know, you've been there, the bustling around and pushing each other, you know, the whorehouses are doing better than ever and everything.

But anyway, on this, though, I know it'll probably...

But I just think the more that you can put them on the spot, look, now let's withhold our judgment on this.

And also say, I think you could make the point, which I wouldn't make, but I think you could make the point, look,

Let's look over the record of this administration.

We've done well on arms control.

We've done well on our relations with the Chinese, on our relations with the Soviet.

We've done well on the Mideast.

I mean, we've made progress in a number of areas.

We have a ceasefire.

We're getting our prisoners back.

And why not support us on this particular point?

You're writing my speech.

That's how I start my statement.

I start out by saying what I said four years ago.

to the committee, and then I just say, look what we've done, and the six things that I said, our goals we've achieved.

Send over a copy to me.

I'll probably get it in the news summary, but I'd like to see that.

I mean, the opening statement, though, or the other rest of it.

Yeah.

Well, I have no, this one is, I think, duck soup.

Well, except I think they'll hit you hard on the other.

Certainly, I mean, they'll hit you hard on the aid thing.

They've got a demagogue about something.

They had these poor folks in town.

Geez, that was a horrible thing.

Jesse Jackson and all those people screaming about it.

And for senators to get up there and

You know, to pander to such people, it's unbelievable.

But the thing is that, well, it is not, of course, typical, but when I go to places like Jacksonville and I saw the 4,000 men that just come off of the Saratoga, they've been out there 10 years.

I didn't see all 4,000, but I saw a lot of them and their wives.

And when you go to the South Carolina and the rest, of course, this is the South.

But the people, and of course, we didn't plan it this way, and

I mean, the press has sort of tried lamely on a few of them to say that the Defense Department wrote the speeches for these POWs, for Christ's sakes.

How could they?

These fellows do say the same thing, but that's because they believe it.

Frank Sieverts, one of the Foreign Service people, was on the plane with him on the way back, and I asked him about that.

I said, was any help given?

He said, absolutely not.

He said, you've never seen anything that was more...

um uniformly agreed on by those with no suggestion at all he said the comments they made were he said they were you know they were well organized in these prison camps oh yeah they said they were organized in battalion wings and everything right isn't that true i'm going to talk to them what they what they said when they got off reflected exactly how they felt

And I must say that it's really great to see them say the things they've said about you.

Well, they've really said it themselves.

And one other thing I just wanted to make to you, if you get a chance suddenly to knock it down, you know, this is a sort of a press-created thing, that the president is disappointed because...

He didn't get the credit for the piece of... Hell, I'm not asking for any credit for the president.

I just want credit for the poor damn bastards that fought.

You know what I mean?

Plus, we don't want to be echoed all.

I mean, if they expect to make silly attacks, we're going to counterattack.

Well, and the point is, it isn't credit we're looking for.

As a matter of fact, we do have credit in the country.

How the hell do you get up in the polls like we do if we don't have some credit?

They know that.

What they're concerned about is that they don't give the credit.

Exactly.

But...

But I mean, the point is, if it ever comes up, say, look, we're not concerned about the administration getting credit.

We want the American people, the United States of America, to get credit for, frankly, winning a peace with honor, whatever we want to say.

You know, Mr. President, I don't know what doesn't happen to you, I know, because you're too well protected.

But it's really moving to me when I go places now.

People come over, and without any ostentation, interest in getting publicity,

like nobody around they'll say very quietly how much they appreciate what you've done and uh well that's nice really good you know well you go to you run i run into it only that when you go to places of course the southerners are more religious but but you know that god bless you and that sort of thing we love you and all that well of course that's uh it's it it's really rather remarkable but the what happened what must have triggered is the pow thing they see these fine guys who've suffered so much and they come back

rather than these stinking people in the media and the rest that are always bitching, the senators and the rest.

These guys come back, their heads high, saluting and loving the country.

My God, you know, that really makes you ashamed of yourself, you know, forever crying, doesn't it?

Pretty, I know.

It's pretty nice, though, that people come up.

I bet I've had 50 people just come up and just say, we want to say thank you.

Is that right?

Yeah.

I mean, they don't want an autograph.

They don't want to have their pictures.

Isn't that great?

Yeah.

It's really great.

I'm going to...

But anyway, I'm going to have tomorrow night, I'm going to have about 250 members of the House and Senate.

Those, it's rather deliberate, it's just those that have.

not unanimously, but for the most part, supported our programs over the years in Vietnam.

I've had them before, you know, and to thank them, I'm just going to express appreciation to them.

I'm going to ask, I'm asking you and Richardson and a few of the Joint Chiefs to come, and we'll get a chance to mingle with some of the hardliners there.

And also, over the next four weeks, I'm going to have

two evenings at the White House and two church services, and that'll cover all the members of the House and Senate, you know, except for just a few.

Are you going to the gridiron?

I don't know.

I was going to ask you.

I will if you do.

Well, let me say that the problem that I have with it, Bill, is that I told her I don't want to go.

But I probably ought to go one time, but I just, I'm going to ask Ziegler now, I think they're trying to get McGovern.

I just, I don't mind listening to McGovern and all that sort of thing, but I just think going there and... Oh, are they going to have McGovern on the hotel with that?

He didn't even go to the inauguration.

I don't want to be a spoilsport, but what would you, I just think for me to go there and then have to shake hands and a picture taken with him...

It's just not right, you know what I mean?

I've been as generous as I can to him, but he is not reciprocated.

Right, so if he'd gone to the inauguration, I would have forgiven him.

But for that, I mean, isn't that awful?

He's in Europe somewhere.

Oh, no, he went to England deliberately.

Oxford.

That's right, Oxford.

But suppose he does go.

Do you think I should...

Well, don't answer.

I don't think so.

I'll talk.

You get your... My view is no.

Get your hearing out of the way, and I'll talk to you later today.

I don't know.

Maybe, maybe.

I don't want to appear to be... Maybe it's a big thing to do.

He's so goddamn small.

Yeah, yeah.

I have already... Bush is going to be our speaker.

This is not supposed to be known, but I took... And I have got a message to him.

I said I didn't want him under any circumstances...

I want him to totally ignore McGovern, have no jokes about him, and act as if he didn't exist.

You see what I mean?

Don't you agree?

So that because I said, if you're gracious to him, it's wrong.

If, on the other hand, you joke even in a halfway, you're picking on a poor guy.

So just leave him alone.

Ignore him.

Act as if he didn't exist.

George will do a good job.

Right.

You know, the alfalfa dinner this year was great.

I'm sorry you missed it.

Did you hear about it?

No, I didn't.

I'm the new president.

We had a hell of a time.

Well, that's it.

I'll come next year, then.

I haven't come.

If you're the new president next February.

It was a great dinner, though, this time.

It's better than the gridiron.

Agnew made a speech.

God, he was funny.

It's much better than the gridiron.

I think so, too.

All right, Mr. President.

Good luck.

Bye.