On March 27, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:22 pm and 5:34 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 044-032 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
hello yes sir uh anything uh late to report are you still uh uh just uh handling the uh odds and ends we uh stonewalled it today on the on the watergate thing that's
into the grand jury thing and we handled it the way we discussed i took dash on a little bit today and that's all right i was glad to see baker apparently did a little right the whole committee did and the whole committee did well i mean they did in the meeting according to core logos uh the private meeting but yeah i was asked about it and i just called it bad form and i thought it was unusual that this was the first step that the committee took right so i shifted it over in that direction they asked whether or not dean would
before the grand jury, and then I moved on the cooperation thing that we had cooperated before with members of the White House staff, before the grand jury, cooperated with the FBI, cooperated with all law enforcement agencies, and we will in the future.
The president has made that clear in response to John Dean.
That's not a matter before us, and we, of course, would assess that as it came before us.
I want to underpin that comment by saying that we have cooperated.
The president has made it clear that we will cooperate in the future, and there will be no question about that.
So I went through everything on the panel.
Then, of course, the Cambodian...
legal thing is building very rapidly i i had to take about 15 or 20 minutes on that where the the legal right to bomb yes sir that's that is something that uh yeah you anticipated that all right we're going to have to face uh in some intensity on thursday today i simply pointed out that the
reminded them that under Article 20 of the agreement, the North Vietnamese forces were required to withdraw from Cambodia.
They have not.
The communist forces are launching an offensive in Cambodia, and that we are responding to the Cambodian government's request to provide air support.
I said they have failed.
The communist forces have failed to accept the unilateral ceasefire, which was called by the
Cambodian government.
We're responding in that regard.
So they said, is there any time limit and what is the legal authority?
And I said, I'm not prepared to be more specific at this time other than to remind you with this observation that the North Vietnamese have not withdrawn their forces and that the communist forces in Cambodia are not meeting the ceasefire.
The United States will adhere to the ceasefire in Cambodia when one is in effect.
I'll just take exactly the same line tomorrow.
There's nothing else we can do on it, I think, Ron, at this point.
That's the deal.
So that was really the thrust of the briefing today.
There was then the veto.
I think he hit that.
Effectively.
Right.
Right.
Good.
I think it's a good idea.
Your comments on Tanaka coming are playing fine.
Yeah.
Well, that little guy had to get me.
I didn't mind.
No, no.
That is coming.
We're working on it.
Right.
It's a good Japanese person.
You know, I am inclined to think on Watergate and Arrested.
I don't think, I don't agree with those.
I think you don't either.
We should try to dish out with something tomorrow or something in reaction to McCartney.
You know, name people and so forth.
I don't think it's the right thing to do.
You know, I talked to Bill Rogers, for example.
He totally disagrees with the idea that if we do anything that I should get out.
You know, John Ehrlichman's recommendation, well, it was not his recommendation, but he is strongly urging that what I ought to do, that if we did say that the people at the White House were going for the grand jury, that I should go on primetime television and announce it.
And Roger says, you'd be out of your damn mind.
He says, don't ever do that.
He says, if you do it, he said, we should announce it.
He said, you can't put the president in the position of being the defendant here.
You're not the defendant.
But that's, I don't know, that's your view.
He didn't like the idea.
And he says, if we're going to cooperate, he says, and he's taking a new step, he says, keep it at your level even now.
I'm inclined to think that...
I was mulling over this afternoon the possibility that on the tail end of Thursday night, you know, might be the time to address this thing, but... No.
No, I think not.
No, I don't think so.
No.
I thought of that, too, but it just won't fit.
It doesn't fit into what it'll be.
My feeling is that if you address it directly from your standpoint, then that immediately puts you on the defensive.
And Secretary Rogers on that, he feels very strongly about it.
He says, look, and of course he's here in the middle of this town and everything.
He says, of course it's a story.
It'll be a continuing story.
But he said, you're just going to escalate it to a hell of a lot bigger story.
He says, it's not to our interest.
He says, a story like this, you just keep cutting it off as best you can.
point.
He says, don't have the president there.
And the other thing, you know, that I have come upon, and I know the idea that you have of getting ahead of everything and that we were talking about.
He likes the idea of getting ahead.
He says, don't you do it.
Don't have the president do it.
He said, have it done on your behalf.
Well, you think back to the...
The Truman Adams days and also the Truman days.
Oh.
And Johnson's days.
Right.
The president never addressed that.
Johnson never addressed the Bobby Baker thing, and he never addressed the Jenkins thing.
Never.
That's right.
Never said a damn word.
That's right.
And Eisenhower never said a word about Adams, except he had confidence in him and knew that he was an indispensable man.
Truman, of course, failed, but he would never address the subject.
He says all red herring.
Mm-hmm.
You're not saying that.
See, I'm not taking that line.
I think that's a very important distinction.
We will cooperate, which is something from what Truman said.
Eventually, as you said last night at the plane, we may come to a place where we have to fight the committee.
Well, we will.
That's another line, too.
That's the third option, right?
I mean, that is an option, yes.
See what I mean?
If you put something on the end of that, if you were to put that before 60 million people, you're going to hit about 40 million that aren't that worried about it.
You get my point?
I agree.
Having said that, I am inclined still to believe that this moment, that anticipating what probably will unfold Friday and after that, I am convinced that MSG in Florida, I'm convinced that Hunt will cave.
I'm convinced that McCord will come.
I don't know about the Cubans.
I don't know that they're that much of a factor.
I think we should anticipate and fully expect that the information, whatever they have, will become known.
Now the question is,
And the thing is, the way I would do that is to say, since it is known, the people that have been named will appear before the grand jury.
Right.
In other words, that's the way I'd handle it.
Handle it in a legal way.
I mean, at this moment, I was sort of leaning the other one, but the more I think about it, I don't have a...
of a special prosecutor is you can't find one.
That's the case.
It seems to me that sometime this week, at least following today's briefing, and I will be quite frank with you, the questions were not so much hostile.
It's moved off of that for some reason, but they were very intense.
And
It seems to me that if the decision is that we will not, and I don't quarrel with that decision, but if the decision is that we will, it's not in our best interest to proceed with the initiative to have a special prosecutor and something of that sort, the president should very definitely, and I could do this, develop an operative statement here this week which throws the thrust to the Urban Committee and to the grand jury
The operative statement, just to give you a thought, would be that in view of the charges that have been made, that every member of the White House staff who has been named and so forth has volunteered to appear, and they will appear before the grand jury.
And that as far as the executive privilege, as far as this matter is concerned, it does not ride.
In relation to the grand jury.
Right.
Because it relates to a matter that there was no conversation on, so I didn't do nothing about it.
Right.
let her go.
What about the Urban Committee?
No, that's not the proper forum.
This is a criminal charge.
It's been leveled.
The grand jury is a proper forum.
And then Stonewall Urban Committee.
Right.
That's why I would do that.
Make the point that we have said we would cooperate.
Well, this way, the new thing is that you said that the people in the White House staff will go before the grand jury.
That's right.
But it seems that we need, from the standpoint of the presidency, because
sense in the briefings, and I feel it's my responsibility to communicate this, I can sense in the briefings that the questioning is becoming, and you can feel this as the questions come,
that it is relating itself more and more, even though we said cooperation today, and even though we continue to repeat that, it seems to be flowing more to the fact that we are saying that because we have something to hide.
And therefore, I think that a good, strong statement of this is the president's position.
That's correct.
I get your point.
The Dean report was done.
We have confidence in Deans.
There's a new situation that has arisen in relation to McClure.
And secondly, because of that new situation, the president has instructed that every member of the White House staff be prepared to appear before the grand jury.
I think we can put them in a little bit better position.
They have all volunteered.
The president has authorized them to appear.
And there's no executive privilege on that point.
That's a pretty strong statement.
And the fact that the executive privilege on that point, and the fact that the grand jury in our system, and I seem to get a response from the press like I did today, I said that these matters, the pursuit of an investigation of matters such as this, must proceed in an orderly and judicious manner.
That line is what we can do, and that's where the grand jury line is, rather than the other.
We'll be prepared at the proper time, but we don't want to be rushed into something like, you know, like even somebody said maybe we shouldn't even do the announcement on Thursday night.
Well, what the hell?
You've got to.
The Vietnam thing.
Absolutely.
I mean, you can't let that ride.
I mean, let this thing override that.
The hell with it.
No, I agree with that.
Absolutely.
Particularly with what we're going to add to it.
Okay, Ron.
Okay, sir.