Conversation 045-005

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I forgot to tell you, please give me a call on any development on that California thing.

Yes sir, I will.

On the decisions so that we'll know how to react here.

As a matter of fact, as far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer to have the damn jury act.

I think it's much the more responsible way.

If it comes out the other way, the hell with it.

Let it come out.

Sure.

I mean, you know what I mean.

We've done the right thing, and these clowns get out and do such stupid goddamn things that we've got to take the blame for it.

Well, I think we can obviate a lot of that in this situation, though.

Well, I think the fact that, you know, when it came to our attention, i.e.

yours, mine,

You know, we made an immediate disclosure.

Oh, yeah, that.

Oh, the event.

But, I mean, the fact that it was done, you know, the fact that it was done, as you know, it was not authorized.

This is a case where these guys had the responsibility when they were at the White House to conduct an investigation in the Ellensburg thing due to the fact that Hoover would not.

And so they go out and do this sort of thing.

Right.

Well, we just got to live with that.

Yeah.

Just say this was totally unauthorized.

Right.

And that's a thing to say.

That's right.

Just frankly, as a matter of fact, I think that would be John Mitchell's defense on Watergate, that it wasn't authorized.

That's right.

Don't you agree?

Do you think that Dean would substantiate that in his frame of mind, in his attitudinal problems?

Right.

Dean?

I don't know.

But my point is, Dick, you're absolutely right, though, with Dean on this business of

letting him blackmail anybody.

I mean, Dean is saying everything.

And Dean is basically what the problem is.

And it's too damn bad because he thought he was doing it for everything.

But it looks to me like on one point, you couldn't possibly give him immunity.

And that is because it doesn't involve anybody else.

And that's the very critical meeting he had where he told Magruder how to testify.

Don't you agree?

Yes, sir.

How that, I mean, a good God?

McGruder's going to say that.

And how can, what's Dean going to say?

Just deny it?

See, because he's, I don't think, he's never told me that he's told him what to testify.

Thank God, so that if I did, I'd have to let him go right away.

He's never told me that he's done anything with regard to this whole financial operation except pass along.

Or pass along, except to pass along.

Except to pass along.

But he was in it.

He was in it.

But the point is, my own view is that with his frame of mind, he may think this is a way to give Ehrlichman a kick in the ass.

And I don't know.

So if he did, so be it.

But Ziegler makes an interesting point that hadn't occurred to me and may not have occurred to you.

He said, Dean can get up and say that the day was the night.

And at the present time, his credibility is enormously

You know what I mean?

I mean, here's Dean, who's supposed to have made a report, and it proves out to be false and so forth and so on.

He has no credibility.

You get my point?

Yes, sir.

And Dean can say, well, that he spoke to the Attorney General or he spoke to the—which he won't, of course—but that he spoke to the Assistant Attorney General, which he did, of course, or he spoke even to the President.

I don't think he'll go that— I don't think he'll go anything.

I don't think he's going to go that far as speaking to the President, but he could, you know.

I mean, I think that even he would not do that, but your guess would be better than mine.

I don't know the man that well.

Yeah, do I?

I thought I did, but I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

But my point is, Dick, suppose he does.

I mean, here's a desperate man who has misled and so forth and so on, and there's an old story, you don't strike a king unless you kill him.

That's correct.

I've had a lot of lawsuits.

And he's got to remember that.

That young fellow had a tough lawsuit insofar as credibility and believability I think would be demolished.

And as a result of being demolished, it might help clarify an awful lot of these problems.

And if you acquiesce to him for any expedient reason, we would be making one of the most fundamental errors I think we could possibly make.

Dick, you're right.

That's my view.

Except this, I've always made it clear to Pierce, I said, you get to get the facts.

I don't want to be in the position of covering up for a higher up.

And I said, if he's got something that he wants to tell you about Ehrlichman or Haldeman that he won't tell you without getting immunity, then you've got to work it out, whatever you can work out.

But I said, don't give him an incentive to lie.

You know what I mean?

But you see, they can't, as you know, under apparently the immunity statutes, they can't even do that.

When I say give him immunity, they can only give him

Apparently, what we were talking about, they give him use immunity, of course, but transactional immunity is another thing.

It's much more limited since the 1970 statute.

Is that correct?

Yes, sir.

And Jesus Christ, I mean, they couldn't possibly give him immunity, for example, in the subordination of perjury, could they?

What?

No, they couldn't.

Because that doesn't involve home manure anymore.

Or am I wrong?

Tell me the law on that.

That's correct.

Yeah.

So, I think that we got to, I think this, at the present time, I really think that the thing to do is to, they've got to sit down with Dean and his lawyer and say, all right, now look, we're going to call you and you can do what you want.

I think they have to call, I don't think you can continue to temporize with him.

No, and we're not, and I think the stage is just about set to, might have a significant course of events here.

You think so?

Yes, sir.

What do you think they'll do?

Well.

Call him in?

Oh, I think they're going to come in and we're going to be prepared for it, or Henry is.

And I think based upon what happens, that meeting, you know, might have a lot to say about this whole situation.

Yeah.

Well, Henry is, when you're talking to him, I told him this last night when I met with him, I don't care what he says about anything that he talks about with the president, no blackmail.

No blackmail.

Because if it's going to be Dean's word against mine,

And he'll be lying.

He's going to have one hell of a time.

Yes, he is.

Don't you think?

Yeah, I don't think he's—I'm not worried about him, Mr. President.

The only thing I don't want us to do is to encourage him and believe that he feels that we're worried.

Yeah.

Because then he could— Well, he says he's got his—what is he called, the big bomb?

Trump card.

His Trump card.

Well, his Trump card could be anything.

Peter says maybe it's him, maybe it's a stranger.

I don't think so.

I think what his trump card is that he's got all this information on Ehrlichman and maybe that the president has denied immunity to him in order to protect Ehrlichman and Haldeman.

That could be a trump card.

Or he could say that there was another thing that, well...

He informed the president on March 21st, which that's what, of course, triggered my whole reaction, that he informed on the fact that the Hunts people were requiring money, which was my first knowledge of it, believe me, of the whole thing.

But, of course, that's not going to be a damn good trump card because that's the day I took over the investigation myself.

And, frankly, just from your information, I relieved him of it.

That's why we think all he has is, you know, just a blatant, desperate...

attempted blackmail and he is at that point then if we deny him that then he is going to he's going to crumble his own little house mr president either crumbles it or he then flails out in the wildest possible way and that that's why i say i think he might do and it might ultimately come out to the benefit of everybody why would you think that because just in terms of credibility and you know because basically uh

He is not going to be believed, in my opinion, or do you think he will?

Could he establish believability now after... No, sir.

I just tried too many lawsuits and seen too much human behavior.

I'd be worried about him.

Right.

Okay, Mike.

Call me, if you will, on this thing, as soon as you hear anything.

I shall.