Conversation 045-027

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Hello.

Mr. President?

Hello, Dick.

How are you?

Good.

Jimmy and I are down here at my office with Pat Gray.

Let me give you his version of it before we discuss the ramifications of it.

I describe his attitude.

Several days after the apprehension of the Watergate buggers, he was asked to come over and met in John Ehrlichman's office.

And there was Dean.

Part of the conversation was

John Dean, Ehrlichman, saying nothing.

John Dean says, Pat, here are some highly sensitive, very secret files that were in the possession of Howard Hunt that have nothing to do with the Watergate case.

They are of a very, very secret, sensitive nature.

He did not describe their contents.

They should not be put in the FBI files, and they should never see the light of day.

Here, you take them.

Pat took the documents.

John Dean stayed there with John Ehrlichman.

Ehrlichman said nothing about the documents, and they were talking about apprehension and concern that you had about leaks from the FBI.

Pat then left that office, went home, had a few trips to make, left them at home, but he came back on a Sunday night.

This occurred on a Thursday or Friday.

They came back on a Sunday night.

He then took the documents down to his office without looking at them, tore them into bits, put them in his burn basket, and they were destroyed.

That's Pat's feeling.

I said, Pat.

But he then is not going to say anything.

He will not say that he was ordered to destroy them.

No.

That pressed upon cross-examination as a result of what Dean said.

said that I had to gather as being, you know, a representative of the President of the United States, that I had to just infer from his remarks that since I didn't see the light of day, they were of such highly sensitive nature, and not be put in the FBI files, he'd just lose himself, you know, and destroy them.

Now that's quite a bit different, you know, than

get in a specific direction.

Yeah.

But I think, you know Pat as I do, you press him to the wall and Pat would say that the only fair evidence that I could gain from my conversation with John Dean, with Ehrlichman, President, was that they had to be destroyed.

But he would not say— It was Dean that told him this.

Yeah, yeah.

But he would not say that he was specifically ordered to destroy them.

So now we are talking in this vein.

If you testify before a grand jury, we all have to assume that that's going to go out and hit the streets.

We're trying a monumental leap there.

We are in no position to go throw lawyers in jail because of the atmosphere.

So suppose that this very statement that you gave us, that you made public tomorrow.

You just got the press in and said, this is what happened.

What would that do with respect to your ability to, after, manage the Federal Bureau of

investigation he said it was me it would be a disaster so i said well pat that's where we are logically if it should come out and indeed it is because of all the leaks that we have isn't that where we are feels that to get an admission of guilt of some kind right and i said that's fine i can see you haven't done anything criminally wrong you know

It's in light of all the facts and circumstances, the Watergate case, his ability to conduct the office.

It's just an impossible situation for you to manage that bill.

And that is where we wound up before I called you, because I told him that I wanted to, you know, he's in the other room with Henry to report to you what he said in the context of it.

Ray, as you know, is a soldier.

He's going to do a goddamn thing.

I know.

Henry and I

You and Henry feel that nothing should be done tomorrow, then?

No.

No, that isn't true, sir.

Henry and I feel when we get across to Pat without just denuding him, he's going to resign.

How do you want us to proceed tonight?

Well, how would we do it?

You should say nothing tonight.

Oh, I'm not talking about tonight, but I'm trying to make a decision tonight.

Yeah.

But in terms of the resignation, and I know he's always raising the problem of what about Ehrlichman in this case?

And I say, well, there was a problem with Dean.

What about Dean?

And he says, and Peterson is going to, they're going to have to get Dean.

You know what I mean?

Dean's lawyers are still saying we're going to want immunity and all that sort of thing.

You give him immunity?

I don't want to give him immunity.

Right.

I don't think anybody is planning on giving him immunity.

That's right.

But is anybody advising it?

That's my point.

Well, then, basically, all you can talk to Dean about is not immunity, but you can only talk about, well, we'll give you the fairest treatment we can.

Isn't that right?

There's no way you could give him immunity, for example, in the subordination of perjury, is there?

No, sir.

I don't even want to talk to that little bastard about giving him the fairest treatment we can.

He's put himself in a position in opposition to you, the government of the United States, everybody he's associated with.

He's going to find himself in a very, very small corner, Mr. President.

And that's the point.

So he's going to be, as I told you, he'll strike again.

That's right.

On Pat, what's your advice?

What do you and Henry think?

Well, you understand, I'll take care of my problems.

Let me tell you, you can tell Peterson.

I mean, I've got my own problem, but I can handle my own way, you know.

I'm not going to draw this.

This is a little bit different version than Peterson told me.

Peterson told me that Ehrlichman

had ordered—that Gray was going to say that Ehrlichman had ordered him to destroy the documents.

Now that proves not to be true, does it?

That's correct.

See, I want the damn truth.

I don't care whether I know Peterson hates Ehrlichman, and that's all right too, but I don't want Peterson to mislead me like that.

Peterson doesn't hate Ehrlichman, but let me give you an event that occurred last summer, Mr. President, in August when I was out of here on my vacation on a particular Sunday when I was out of the city.

John Ehrlichman called up Peterson in a very, very intemperate way, gave him instructions with respect to what he ought to do in this goddamn matter.

Henry Peterson hadn't been the mature kind of fellow that he was.

Yeah, instructions about in what way, but not to cover up or anything?

No, no, no, but just the whole manner in which we were investigating this thing and doing it and everything else.

That really rubbed Henry the wrong way.

Well, I understand.

I don't understand.

I like Peterson, I mean myself, you know what I mean?

You trust him now, don't you?

Who, Henry?

Yes.

Mr. President, if I learn tomorrow that Henry Peterson has been put through this and this... All right.

I don't know what the hell I'd do.

Some say not, but I mean, I understand.

I'm talking to him as he's my counsel now, and I want you to know that.

Mr. President, you trust me, don't you?

Of course.

I trust Henry Peterson.

I'm sure.

My point is, I'll come back to the judgment.

What is Peterson?

What of Peterson do you think we ought to do?

in the process of telling Pat that he's got to resign.

He should do it on the basis that totally, but that this is another of the, I mean, that in view of the, he thinks his ability to, in view of the charge that has been made, that this should say exactly what happened here, that he was delivered these documents, that he was told they were not in any way related to the Watergate case.

What did he say?

Politically sensitive?

Highly sensitive for national security reasons.

He should not see the light of day, nor should they be put in the FBI files.

On that basis, he took them.

Two incredible aspects of this, Mr. B.

He didn't open it.

Number one, he didn't say, well, why the fuck are you giving them to me?

Why don't you destroy them yourself?

That's right.

Well, that's why his destruction line won't work, you see.

And then not knowing what was in them and not being specifically ordered to destroy them, he destroyed them.

And why didn't he look into them and see what they were?

Or why didn't he look at them?

And then he says, well, I gathered the clear import of Mr. Dean's remarks that they were given to me for the purpose of being destroyed.

Oh boy, no, the conclusion that he writes, no, no, he must, let me say, Pat must not say that publicly.

He'll say it to a grand jury.

If he says that, that's a conclusion that he says, but that's public.

But my point is, he says the White House counsel, well, of course, Dean is going to be, ordered him to destroy, he will not say that, sir.

that he drew that conclusion.

All right, but you understand, that makes him look like a goddamn, it looks like they're a goddamn fool.

Not only looks like a fool, but it looks like the two of them together were conspiring to destroy evidence.

That's right.

They can't do it.

He's got to put it.

Pat's got to put it.

And I've gone over this thing with him 10 times.

He's got to put it in terms.

He won't do it.

He'll say this, I was not specifically ordered to destroy them.

says, Pat, here are some documents, the most sensitive documents.

They have nothing to do with the Watergate case.

They pertain to national security matters.

They should never see the light of day, and they should not be in the FBI .

And all right, OK.

He takes them, goes back and destroys them, because he concludes with ,, the intent being

John Dean to destroy it.

You should not impute that to Dean or anybody else and not to Ehrlichman.

You can't impute it to Ehrlichman.

Ehrlichman didn't say it.

Ehrlichman was there, however.

The only reason why you could impute it to Ehrlichman is that, you know, by his silence, you know, Ehrlichman concurred in what Dean said.

Wonderful, loyal fellow, and sometimes just very rigid.

Rigid as he can be.

But let me say one thing.

I mean, he's interested in the presidency, isn't he?

Yes, he is.

I must say that on this point, the worst thing he could say would be to come out of here.

I was ordered to destroy these documents, or even that I gathered the impression that Mr. Dean wanted me to destroy.

That's practically the same thing, see?

I think he'd say that, Mr. President.

I think he's going to say that.

Do your best on that, though.

I mean, you see my point?

Sure, I see it.

I mean, you tell him, Pat, that just doesn't add up.

It's going to make it sound like hell.

And we've gone over it with him about ten times.

And that's what he would say tomorrow, you mean, or nothing?

Well, he'll say nothing tomorrow if we tell him not to.

He'll wait until he goes to the grand jury.

What would he do tomorrow?

Resign?

Why?

Because of this charge?

He doesn't want to resign.

He himself thinks...

He resigned as a result of what's going to be in the newspaper.

You know, that would be a confession of guilt on his part, and that just brings the world down.

Well, under the circumstances, I mean, you haven't seen the, let's just put it this way, let's just put it this way.

This matter is to be heard.

He's going to appear before the grand jury.

Do you think the grand jury will indict him for this?

No, sir.

You don't think so?

I, Henry and I do not believe.

Let me just check that, just one second.

The answer, the answer.

Thank you, sir.

Mr. President, uh, Mr. Henry or I feel that, you know, what he would say would be an indictment if he hasn't committed any crime or violated any law.

So you mean, isn't it, uh, is it part of the—well, what about the conspiracy to cover up a mental illness and so forth?

No, no, no.

I don't think that that would—no.

He wasn't intending to cover anything up because they said it wasn't—it had nothing to do with that.

It was a bad judgment.

That's right.

frankly think myself, I'm not of the view that just based on the newspaper story, then I'll reconsider.

I'm not of the view that tomorrow, as of tomorrow, Pat Gray up and resigns.

I think, frankly, we ought to treat him like we're treating the others.

God damn it, the grand jury, let's see what the grand jury does.

But at the end, we're going to, Pat's going to be out anyway shortly, you know what I mean?

And I've got to, I may move on this little sooner.

Okay.

as a result of this.

Fair enough.

Mm-hmm.

All right.

But tell him that I just hold tight to none of my evidence.

And tomorrow.

That's right.

No, don't do a damn thing as a result of a newspaper story.

All right, sir.

Tell Peterson that.

Nothing on the base of the newspaper.

Tell Peterson when you're talking to him that I've appreciated his hard work in this thing, and he's given us his best counsel, but that I do feel that now, after all, Dean floated this story, you know.

That's where it came from.

The New York Times will report it.

Mr. President, just as I piece this whole thing together, trying to have objectivity in it, my experience with human beings and the lawyer, one of the reasons particularly that I don't want to give immunity to John Dean is that I think out of desperation and hysteria and panic and fear, this poor young man is going to put himself in a corner, you know,

where he's going to be at odds with everybody.

And he might go down very, very badly, but it might also tend to kind of resurrect and rotate other people.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

In other words, that he's going to look like the bastard?

Yeah.

That's the way this thing better come out.

Because it's the truth.

That's the way he's appearing to everybody.

It's the truth.

Mitchell, you, Pat Gray, Henry Peterson, me.

He had never taken you on, has he?

Well, I dealt with him all last summer on the assumption that, A, he didn't know anything about it.

He was discussing the general course of the investigation, you know, on your behalf.

Right.

He had the same kind of conversations with Pat Gray, with Henry Peterson, you know.

with everybody, you know, even with yourself.

And now he's trying to pin everybody else with it.

He says it's just the innocent little pawn in the bag.

God, you know, one thing, I just stopped to think of it, even though I didn't, but did you know I never saw him personally until

I never saw him about this, and then it was about it because of the gray confirmation thing until February the 22nd.

Is that right?

Never.

You never discussed this matter with him?

Never.

Until February 22nd?

That's right.

That is a very... February, wait a minute, let me just check my book here.

7th, 27th.

Of February?

27th of February, that's right.

He was not in your office?

Never, except one time to sign my wills.

That's right.

Look, that's where we work here, you know.

I mean, I put a man in charge, and that's... You know, listen to this little bastard.

He's in there talking to you four times a day.

Oh, he has been since then.

He was.

But even last summer, you know, last summer, I never... Well, let's get one thing straight.

I, the president, never saw John Dean once except for the signing of the rules until February 27th.

That was on August the 14th.

August the 14th, Simon Wilson.

That's the only time I ever saw him.

But everything that was put out by Ziegler, and he's not to blame, based on what Dean told him.

There was no Dean written report, but my God, Dean Orley was, I mean, why do you think Dean, why in the world would you think Ziegler would get out and say no one in the White House is out?

Because Dean told him not.

Ziegler himself said all that, but I think the significant fact is that

Right.

Did he give you the impression he did see me?

Right.

He gave everybody that impression.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, anyway, I do think that tonight and tomorrow Pat Gray will stay there as the director of the FBI.

I think he's going to stay there until I'll try to get his successor within a reasonable time.

Do you know what I mean?

He knows that, but he shouldn't just resign over this.

No.

I agree.

It's a story.

Okay, sir.

Fine.

I don't think he should put out a story about his version of it.

No, no.

He'll just go to the grand jury.

He said, I'll tell— Let me see.

Back to the grand jury?

No.

He says, no.

He said, this is a newspaper.

I'm not going to comment on a newspaper story.

I mean, I'll be glad.

I'm going to—I've asked to testify for the grand jury.

That's what he should do.

Got it.

Fine.

Okay, sir.