Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate and John W. Dean III

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Hello?

Mr. President, I have Mr. Ziegler for you.

Thank you.

Go ahead, sir.

Hello.

Yes, sir.

Had a long session, huh?

Well, no, it wasn't too long.

We just stayed over and we showed them through the Blair House and that type of thing.

Oh, good.

Good.

No problem at all.

I just hope you were able to make your points.

Who did you meet with?

Sam Dash and Fred Thompson and another fellow.

Len and I went over.

The basic point I made is that my office and the...

And as an individual, we placed total confidence in Dean as a man who repeatedly told us that he had carried out an investigation and that no one in the White House was involved in it, and that we did not inject ourselves into any further probe on our own part, and that no time did I ever hear discussed by anyone.

referred to by anyone in reference to a defense fund or anything of that sort on behalf of the defendants.

And they did not press me hard at all, but I made the point throughout that there is absolutely no question about the fact that we placed our confidence in Dean.

And then I made the point that during the period of July, August, September, October, and then November, December, and on up until March, that we were involved in foreign policy matters.

We were involved in the acceptance speech.

We were involved in the Soviet summit.

We were involved in the ending of the Vietnam War, the secret talks.

that Henry was conducting, and that was what was absorbing the presidency at his immediate office.

And were you able to get across the point that I was always insisting that, yeah, I did not get it all.

I mean, get the facts.

Did you make that?

Right.

They didn't even get into questions in relating to the president at all, but I did weave in the point.

What I was involved in was a total confidence that Dean was doing what I knew the President wanted him to do, and that was to find out absolutely and for sure that no one in the White House was involved.

That was his orders.

That's right.

He made that decision.

Right.

Proxmire was great on TV the night, I understand.

And he said, this kind of scandal mongering reminds me of McCarthyism, he said, the attacks on the president.

He said, here's a man like Dean who's trying to get immunity.

And he said, at least the people who print these stories should be suspected at the way they're playing.

And he says, this approach seems to me to be a disservice to the president and to every American.

So I think what that indicates is that without any movement on our part,

to stimulate this, this is going to start building, you see.

Do you think so, Ray?

Yes, sir, I do.

I mean, Proxmutter, you know.

He's not our man.

That's exactly right.

Now, you know, people begin to pick this up.

I think, I feel very good tonight that the people begin to, on the Hill, sense this.

The American people are going to get tired of all of this and

Well, the thing we want to do now, I'll say this, Sam Dash and those boys were very deferential to me.

In other words, they treated me and the presidency with a great deal of respect.

And you're sure of that, that they weren't just leading you on?

Absolutely, I'm sure of it.

Absolutely.

And I was trying to get the facts all the time.

Yes, sir, that point was made.

You know, I definitely left them with the impression, and Len feels this very clearly too, that there's no question about the fact that the man who we placed our trust in is the guy who let us all down.

No question.

Len thought it went well, didn't he?

Well, Len, yes, he did.

He said, you know, you handled it well.

He said you shot Dean down, which was my intent, of course.

which is what we've got to do.

And I've got some thoughts on that I'll talk to you about tomorrow, which, you know, sometimes it takes a snake to kill a snake.

And you might use a Jack Anderson on a thing like this, too, some of these things.

Maybe so.

You know, we've got a few little things, you know, or the New York Times or, you know, somebody.

Well, this is what we're talking about today, yes, sir.

Woodward or, you know, any son of a bitch, you know.

Yes, sir.

Just let them have a story.

And we get our story across, but particularly the story that the president, goddammit, is not covering anything up here.

Right.

He isn't trying to, doesn't want to, you know?

Right.

He's not involved, you know what I mean?

We can't let him get away with that sort of crap, you know?

Well, we're not going to.

You know, it's a time strike.

And, well, if we get these papers, I don't know who will ever get them, the dean.

documents, but that'll be interesting to see what the hell—if we ever see that, we'll see what the hell he— Well, what could they be?

I'm not even concerned about it.

I think they're his memorandum of much regard.

Well, I'm not concerned about that.

I'm really not.

Well, except they'll be vicious and self-serving.

I'd just say after tonight, I'd like to go side by side with him in public testimony.

You would, huh?

Oh, would I?

I'd really like that.

That's the type of battle that I'd like.

But we can't let him go before that Senate committee before the grand jury, you know, hears these things, Ron.

If he does that, he'll create a public impression.

It'll make it impossible for these poor bastards to have a trial.

And also, it'll attack the presidencies in a way that we've got to answer it.

That's right.

Well, maybe that's it.

I don't know.

We're working out that strategy.

And Al, as you know, is meeting with Chappy Rose tonight.

And Lynn came back and was going to meet with him.

Right.

I'll tell you, I'm full of fire on that one.

I'll go before those cameras if he goes before him.

Because the guy is, you know, whatever he's saying and whatever he says in this regard, I have an awful lot of people here who...

who were responsible for the White House position on this, who placed total confidence in him.

That's right.

And so did you.

Everything we said, my God, he told Jerry Warren and he communicated in here that he had been asked to do a total investigation.

You told them that?

Yes, I did.

And there were many times where we talked to him and he referred to his investigation.

And did they question that?

No.

I think people pretty well have a mark of that man.

And they're getting it.

But our best posture—I might be wrong on this, but I don't think so—our best posture is to let him play his hand a little bit here, and then we'll strike at the right time.

And I'll tell you, I've gone over my notes, and I've discussed this with my staff today,

We'll strike them hard because there's not even a question in my mind in terms of what we would say or what we would do.

I'll take them on.

I'll take them on any time, but it's got to be the right time.

That's right.

Okay, Ron.

Thank you.

Okay, sir.

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate and John W. Dean III

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Also recorded on May 9, 1973

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