Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and John N. Mitchell

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Hello?

Uh, Mr. Ziegler, sir?

Hello?

Yes, sir.

Hi, Ron.

How are you handling the, uh, the Stans, uh, Mitchell thing?

Oh, we're not, uh, commenting on it.

You're not commenting on it?

Right.

I don't think we should.

Absolutely not on any indictments ever, of course, because indictments don't prove guilt, you know.

That's exactly right.

Uh, they were the only two indicted.

Anybody else?

Um... Those are the only two moving, uh, moving now.

Um...

Yes, sir, I think.

But do they expect others from the grand jury or not, from that Grant and Vesco?

I don't know.

Well, Vesco was indicted, too, here.

I'm just— Oh, I know Vesco, but I know—but I meant anybody from— See, they were—they were questioning Ehrlichman on the damn thing and Dean and a hell of a lot of other people.

It was just Mitchell, Stans, and Vesco.

Yeah.

What are they indicted for, Ron?

On six counts of perjury each.

Jesus Christ, perjury.

Oh boy, that's rough.

Mitchell and Stantz indicted on today.

Deceit, craft, perjury, etc.

was used, but six counts of perjury each.

But that's what it says, yes sir.

Well, you know, I'm very philosophical about it, and all you are, but I'm sorry, but sorry for the men, and I don't like to get this kind of a blow, but goddamn, we expected it, didn't we?

Yes, we did.

And I think it proves the system works, doesn't it?

That's exactly right.

When you look at it on, you know, what I said last night, you know, your point, we've investigated ourselves, and the people can't overlook, and this is one thing I've been mentioning here as we're talking to the press, is that this was a federal grand jury, a U.S. attorney who proceeded with the grand jury investigation, and now with the complete cooperation of the administration, without drawing conclusions on the individuals involved, now the judicial process will move along, and that's where it stands.

Right.

Well, at least that'll move Watergate a little bit lower in the story tomorrow, won't it?

Well, I think so.

But also, I'm sure that the, you know, the announcements we made here today came out something.

Oh, yes.

Absolutely.

They were pretty good.

The colony one was good, too.

The colony one was good, yes, sir.

Yeah.

Did they pick that up?

Oh, sure.

It was a lead.

That was a lead together with the Schlesinger thing.

Absolutely.

Well, sure, you know, they'll go out and talk it up big and you sick a lot of the newsies on them and so forth and so on.

I would mislead, it occurred to me, one guy you want to really screw a little, you might want to scoop Pierpoint and tell him that the Russian summit is probably not going to come off.

Well, I've tried that, but it didn't work out.

The problem is the Soviet embassy is backwashing us on that one.

for the last two days.

Apparently their press people from the embassy over here ran out and said that we were going to have— Said that, look, there's no hitch and so forth.

So I'm having a little difficulty on that particular project.

Right.

It was quite significant.

The Soviets wanted to make it very clear.

Well, that announcement Saturday will get us at least a Sunday story that's good.

Oh, absolutely.

And I think also our story.

You know, my announcement of the Blue Ribbon Committee is going to be bad on Sunday night for Monday morning papers.

It's going to be very good.

I'll explain that to them.

I think that's a good idea, that Garmin working on that.

No.

We'll just keep cracking along.

I have a feeling that since the day of the beginning made it such that we're starting to fight again.

How do you feel?

I feel very good.

I feel the same way.

Absolutely.

And I think there's a beginning to develop a sense of, in the

in the press that they may be overextending themselves.

Well, the one thing you've got to get clear to them, God damn it, they shouldn't overextend themselves in attacking the president.

So Dewey Shark today says, God save me not from my enemies, but from my friends.

And that's what it is.

I mean, I love these guys, but why in the Christ did we get involved with them?

Pesco is a cheap son of a bitch.

He's horrible.

I can't just imagine it.

In Stans' case it was just being a little dumb, but in Mitchell's case it was—he knows better.

Sure.

I see here in that ward that just came in that in addition to Mitchell, Stans, Vesco, also Harry Sears, a former Republican leader from New Jersey Senate— Was indicted.

Was indicted, too.

Oh, boy.

He was our chairman of New Jersey, too.

who made the contribution, and Harry L. Sears, a former Republican leader of the New Jersey Senate who testified earlier he delivered the money to Stans and Marshall.

Why in the hell would they indict him?

I don't know what he could have done.

I don't know.

You know, you see, that's where they got my—thank God they didn't—I just said my poor brother Eddie, you know.

Remember, they got him up there and tried to drag him, but thank God he didn't do anything, you know.

Right, absolutely.

They just asked him what to do.

He said, well, you'd better call Stans, either way.

Right.

Boy, if they'd gotten him, I'd have quit the office, believe me.

No, I wouldn't have.

No, you couldn't have done that.

But the important thing is that it's a non-problem.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, that's a big story.

That's good.

They'll have their meat to eat tonight.

But as soon as we go ahead and indict people—I mean, a lot of people don't give one goddamn about this.

What's this Vesco about anyway?

They haven't stolen any money.

That's right.

And the story is getting now just so complex people can't even follow it anymore.

That's right.

And that's why a move like today was so good.

You know, the announcements today and the Blue Ribbon Commission, as you mentioned, over the weekend.

And the Soviet summit.

And the Soviet summit, of course.

And then we'll move into the summit.

Henry's getting back at 9 tonight.

I don't think I'll stay up and see him because I don't think there's anyone— I think that—you know what I mean?

I would normally do it, but I think he needs the rest.

But I will see him the first thing in the morning at 9 o'clock.

We'll make a big deal out of that.

Well, I was just going to say, and Rogers, of course, the meeting with him is important at 11.

Okay, right.

I think it's better you don't meet with him tonight anyway to get better focus of attention if you meet with Rogers and Kissinger tomorrow.

Okay.

I know I have a sort of an interesting feeling about our brother Dean.

I think the son of a bitch has overextended a bit.

I don't know.

I think he's moving—I think he—if not yet, if we just let him continue to play his hand, I think Dean's going to get himself backed up against the wall, because no one even—I just very coldly no comment at that thing today.

But a guy issues a statement that says, everyone's out to get me.

But you just said no comment.

I just said, no, I wouldn't have a comment on that.

That's right.

I have no comment on a hell of a lot of things.

That in itself, in any... Well, that's almost an admission of guilt.

Sure.

Okay, Ron.

Okay, thank you.

Yes, sir.

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and John N. Mitchell

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Also recorded on May 10, 1973

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