{"conversationCode":"046-039","tapeNumber":46,"conversationNumber":39,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-046-039","startDateTime":"1973-05-14T23:27:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-05-15T00:15:00.000Z","startDate":"14-May-1973","startTime":"7:27 PM","endDate":"14-May-1973","endTime":"8:15 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Ziegler, Ronald L.; Garment, Leonard; Nixon, Richard M. (President);","description":"On May 14, 1973, Ronald L. Ziegler, Leonard Garment, and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 7:27 pm and 8:15 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 046-039 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":"Abuse of Governmental Power Release","aogpSegment":"Segment 0","lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 46-39\n\nDate: May 14, 1973\nTime: Unknown between 7:27 pm and 8:15 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nRonald L. Ziegler talked with Leonard Garment.\n\n[See also Conversation No. 436-15F]\n\n     Watergate\n          -Garment’s telephone calls\n               -Ervin Committee staff\n                     -Sam J. Ervin, Jr.\n                     -Samuel Dash\n                     -Fred D. Thompson\n                     -Howard Baker, Jr.\n                     -Retraction of statements\n          -Newspaper reports\n               -John Birch Society newsletter\n               -Committee’s response\n\nThe President talked with Garment at an unknown time.\n\n     Watergate\n          -Veracity of Committee’s charges against the President\n               -Credibility\n               -Baker, Ervin\n               -Possible suit by President\n               -Dash and Thompson\n               -President’s demands\n               -Charges against press\n               -Garment’s forthcoming telephone call to Baker","filename":["046-039.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Ziegler, Ronald L.","Garment, Leonard","Nixon, Richard M. (President)"],"prevCode":"046-038","nextCode":"046-040","transcript":[{"start":0.49,"end":1.05,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":1.53,"end":2.57,"text":"I had Mr. Garman."},{"start":2.59,"end":4.33,"text":"Oh, good."},{"start":4.36,"end":4.62,"text":"Right."},{"start":5.2,"end":5.38,"text":"Len?"},{"start":5.5,"end":5.94,"text":"Yes, Ron."},{"start":6.16,"end":15.68,"text":"Yes, in talking with the president here, the important thing is that we hit this thing hard enough."},{"start":15.7,"end":19.65,"text":"In other words, you put the fear of God into those people."},{"start":19.67,"end":21.01,"text":"I bet."},{"start":21.43,"end":24.81,"text":"Everybody I can lay my hands on and have calls placed all around town."},{"start":24.99,"end":29.12,"text":"To Irvin, to his senior staff assistant, to Dash."},{"start":29.54,"end":31.76,"text":"I spoke to Thompson four times, talked to Baker."},{"start":32.71,"end":33.95,"text":"And they understand this."},{"start":34.19,"end":36.51,"text":"In other words, they know they've got to retract or else, right?"},{"start":36.59,"end":39.05,"text":"They know they've got to retract or else."},{"start":39.08,"end":44.58,"text":"By the way, that paper is, I gather, is a Bercher paper."},{"start":45.16,"end":47.34,"text":"That's a hell of a thing for the AP to pick up."},{"start":48.42,"end":51.3,"text":"And for these fellas to be sitting around scratching their heads wondering what to do."},{"start":51.4,"end":53.41,"text":"Well, you made that point clear to them, though."},{"start":53.43,"end":55.59,"text":"About sitting around scratching their heads, right."},{"start":55.67,"end":63.54,"text":"I said, if their phone is available to call each other, you don't have to wait to have a plenary conference in order to deny a transparent fabrication like this."},{"start":63.56,"end":66.19,"text":"Well, the president's disturbed we're not hitting this hard enough."},{"start":67.73,"end":69.19,"text":"Well, he'll come on the line."},{"start":69.23,"end":70.91,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":71.05,"end":72.72,"text":"I don't think you understand the..."},{"start":73.05,"end":76.16,"text":"I mean, I'm sure you understand the importance."},{"start":76.46,"end":81.29,"text":"The point that I want to make is that this is the golden opportunity to discredit the committee."},{"start":82.31,"end":86.44,"text":"Now, you understand, they have made a charge, completely untrue."},{"start":87.52,"end":91.51,"text":"And, damn it, Len, for Howard Baker to play the..."},{"start":92.07,"end":113.03,"text":"Now, right now, your friend Dash and this fellow Thompson and the rest, they better understand..."},{"start":113.28,"end":117.56,"text":"is involved here is the credibility of this committee from now on out."},{"start":118.2,"end":119.41,"text":"Just those terms."},{"start":119.55,"end":120.05,"text":"Good for you."},{"start":120.45,"end":120.99,"text":"Good for you."},{"start":121.01,"end":121.65,"text":"You understand."},{"start":121.73,"end":129.78,"text":"I have great confidence in you, but goddammit, they cannot attack the President of the United States stealing a million dollars and get away with it."},{"start":130.68,"end":132.84,"text":"And then for them not to be found."},{"start":133.16,"end":137.29,"text":"I think there's some advantage in giving them a little bit of rope to choke themselves with."},{"start":137.53,"end":138.41,"text":"Well, I agree with that."},{"start":138.43,"end":140.65,"text":"And the fact that they have to"},{"start":140.94,"end":144.82,"text":"But why is it that Baker, what did he do?"},{"start":145.16,"end":146.62,"text":"Whine and cry?"},{"start":146.66,"end":147.55,"text":"He always does."},{"start":147.59,"end":148.39,"text":"He denied it to the press."},{"start":148.41,"end":148.93,"text":"He didn't say that."},{"start":148.95,"end":150.81,"text":"He denied it to the press, and Irvin did, too."},{"start":150.89,"end":152.97,"text":"He said that they have no such... No, no, no."},{"start":153.59,"end":154.22,"text":"There must be..."},{"start":154.82,"end":167,"text":"If you take these words down, there must be a public retraction and apology by the committee, the whole committee, for this libelous support..."},{"start":167.19,"end":169.7,"text":"an assault on the President of the United States."},{"start":169.74,"end":171.01,"text":"It is totally untrue."},{"start":171.37,"end":172.33,"text":"We have no facts."},{"start":172.85,"end":176.02,"text":"We are going to investigate immediately to see"},{"start":176.24,"end":180.95,"text":"What member of the staff was involved, and he will be immediately discharged."},{"start":181.05,"end":183.11,"text":"Now, God damn it, Len, play it tough."},{"start":183.13,"end":184.43,"text":"I will, and I have."},{"start":185.18,"end":189.68,"text":"And the way they're fobbing it off is to say this is irresponsible press."},{"start":190.04,"end":190.91,"text":"Bullshit."},{"start":190.99,"end":193.83,"text":"God damn it, the press wouldn't do it unless the committee was doing it."},{"start":194.21,"end":196.41,"text":"Now, Len, they're putting you on."},{"start":196.5,"end":198.22,"text":"Right, I know that, and I've told them just that."},{"start":199.54,"end":201.72,"text":"You get back to Baker."},{"start":202.38,"end":208.61,"text":"And I want you to repeat to him exactly what I said, that I think he's being a pusillanimous ass on this."},{"start":208.65,"end":209.25,"text":"I really do."},{"start":210.81,"end":212.96,"text":"Or if you think less words are worthwhile, okay."},{"start":213.04,"end":215.02,"text":"I'm really making it clear how you feel about this."},{"start":215.04,"end":215.38,"text":"Okay, boy."},{"start":215.46,"end":215.94,"text":"No mistake."},{"start":215.96,"end":217.88,"text":"Let's give him a little rope."},{"start":217.91,"end":218.55,"text":"All right."},{"start":218.57,"end":220.69,"text":"Very good."},{"start":220.71,"end":220.81,"text":"Okay."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon, Ron Ziegler, and Leonard Garment coordinate a confrontational strategy to force the Ervin Committee to issue a public retraction regarding unsubstantiated allegations against the President. Nixon expresses significant frustration with the perceived lack of aggression from his legal team, specifically criticizing Howard Baker's response to the committee's reporting. The President directs Garment to demand an immediate apology and threaten the committee's overall credibility to ensure they do not successfully propagate false charges.","topics":["Watergate","Ervin Committee","Howard Baker","Presidential credibility","Press relations","Public retraction"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T07:24:16.612Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate","ervin-committee","howard-baker","presidential-credibility","press-relations","public-retraction"],"audioDurationSec":225,"audioFiles":[{"file":"046-039.mp3","bytes":7219200,"durationSec":225.47,"bitrate":256151,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:02.713Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/046-039.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/046-039","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/46/conversation-046-039","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}