On May 17, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 10:41 pm to 10:54 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 046-113 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Uh-huh.
Mr. Siegfried.
Yes, sir.
How'd your meeting go tonight?
Well, we're just wrapping up now.
Oh, boy.
Who's in it?
You and, uh...
Uh, uh, Al and Buzzard.
Oh, good.
Yeah, fine.
Any new ideas?
Well, uh, no ideas yet.
Just a general assessment of things.
No one's discouraged.
Everyone's just taking a look at it.
Right.
And I think your attitude is exactly right, you know, with regard to the fact that, without any discouragement, but with total reality, we look at this thing, but because we can view it wrong.
It's just a question of, you know, going in with a real strong view, you know.
Yes, sir.
But no more changes.
You know, I am convinced of that.
Like, for example, you've got to handle the Bob and John thing off the payroll.
Yes, sir.
And as far as you are concerned, no more crap is done.
Do you understand that?
Yes, sir.
And we just stand our ground all the way.
No, it's not a matter of, you know, weakness or concern about, particularly, essentially on the part of the staff.
And I'm essentially on the part of the staff.
Basic operating premise.
No one here has any right to be concerned about oneself.
No.
What we're talking about, Mr. President, is the presidency.
I understand that.
And we're talking about a very cold, not weak,
but very cold, thorough, calculating analysis of what we're up against.
I don't say that out of a sense of concern, or panic, or desperation, or feeling, or just the sense of how you approach a battle.
Right, we're in a battle, and now we've got to fight it, and fight it on our ground and not on theirs.
And in order to fight it, we've got to really, quite frankly, cut through
any sense of, on the part of those who are here, any sense of reaching for the false premise, reaching for the false sense of the situation, and just deal absolutely with reality.
That's right.
And in the coldest terms.
And people don't matter.
I don't mean—I'm not talking about—people don't matter from the standpoint of a purge or any of that sort, but— But other people than the president?
Nothing matters.
Nothing matters.
And I don't say that out of—you know, I say that out of, of course, loyalty and— I understand what you mean.
—education, but— That's right.
I don't say it from the standpoint that— Do they agree with you?
Yes, sir.
And that's my thing.
How about Al?
Yes, sir.
Absolutely, he sees it.
All right.
And that's how we have to look at this.
I'm not talking about, you know, destroying people.
And you, more than anyone else who I've ever known, have a sense of this.
I'm not talking about destroying people just for the sense of destroying them.
And I don't even think we're talking about destroying people.
That's not my point.
My point is those around you cannot in any way look at their self-interest.
there's only one thing involved here.
Yeah.
That's the present.
I don't think anybody around me is looking at his self-interest at the moment, do you?
No one.
No, that's the whole point.
Right.
And, uh, no, I don't think that.
I don't think they are.
Right.
And so I suppose I should dwell on that.
No, no, no, no.
You're absolutely right.
Absolutely right.
And I, I reached that conclusion and, uh,
You know, it's an interesting thing.
Your attitudes sort of change.
And my view is that in the last week, you know, since the 6th of May, let's face it, we've started fighting.
Absolutely.
It's taken us a little time to sort of get in the mood and everything.
And, boy, at the Cabinet tomorrow, we're going to be strong and firm.
Don't you agree?
Yes, I do.
Yes, I do.
And I think, you know, at the Cabinet tomorrow, just calling these guys, not, well, as you know how to do it, as you always have done, just...
finding out what they feel, what they're doing.
Right.
But I think we should tomorrow, unless you have another feeling, I think rather than asking them to wallow in Watergate, I'm going to ask them about what they're doing in their various jobs.
That's what I mean, absolutely.
Yes, sir.
Right.
That's what I mean.
We'll get on with our tasks, and at the same time, we'll fight this other battle and fight it right up to the hilltop.
Yes, sir.
Right.
Right.
And I would say, you know, sorting out such things as the Dean problem, we should just sort it out and fight it.
That's right.
Right.
In other words, what I'm saying, we shouldn't dwell on the Dean problem.
I think we've probably overdwelled on it, don't you think?
Well, I don't know if we've thought it through well and put it in perspective, but it's only part of the overall... That's right.
It's part of the overall thing.
It's now clear that what we're up against is sort of a...
That's the important thing.
We know what we're up against overall.
Definitely destroy the presidency and so forth.
But we can't look at this from the standpoint of the country is against us and we're on the decline and all of that.
That's not the point.
As I mentioned to you earlier, the thing of it is a cold assessment of it so that we seize the support.
And in order to do that.
And mobilize it at the right time.
And mobilize it.
That's right.
And in order to do that.
if we continue to allow ourselves to be sucked in by the Bob Woodward column and the Dean documents and what he says tonight on Walter Cronkite.
What is it?
You got that yet?
No, no.
What is it, live?
No, no, it's just a film interview.
Oh, well.
But if we allow ourselves to be drawn into... My guess is what it's going to be is a...
Nothing new.
Another self, you know...
congratulatory thing where he points out that, well, he was just doing what he could to save the president and Ehrlichman and Savant.
Yeah, the truth should come out, that type of thing.
The truth should come out and all that bullshit and probably, you know, he'll ask him about his papers, I suppose.
No, I don't think so.
You don't think so?
No, my intelligence says there's nothing new.
Nothing new in what he says.
Intelligence in what respect?
Signals from, I've got some plants over there at CBS who edit film and so forth.
Bob Mead, who's a good guy, he says there's nothing to do.
Well, the hell with it.
I mean, we just cannot be in a position, Ron, of, you know, every day of simply, you know, getting all disturbed about some fact that the psychiatrist's office has broken into in New York or that Dean is going to have some papers or this or that.
God damn it, that's what's wrong.
The point is, the president is involved here.
We're going to
fight to maintain the leadership of this office and of this country.
God damn it, that's what we're around for.
And we're not going to let this issue drag us down.
That's right.
And my point tonight, and everyone in the meeting agrees, and we were talking in general terms, and that is that we have to do a cold, calculated assessment of all of the factors.
and then move from there.
Do you have any immediate ideas for me, for example?
Well, no.
I don't think that's the point now.
I don't think... Well, I mean, I can reschedule it and so forth.
I'm ready to get my horse any day.
That's not the point now.
I don't think... You know, we... You can seize that at the appropriate time.
And as a matter of fact, looking at the...
this week and the next week and so forth, we are, from the standpoint of the public presidential things, we're doing rather well.
I mean, you know, you can't overdo that damn thing.
Sure, that's right.
Yeah, that's right.
But on the other hand, in fighting this other battle, why, it's, by God, we've got to do it.
And also, Ron, we've got to, I mean, let's face it, our fellows that are under attack do it, all of them, Ehrlichman, Coulson.
They've got to get into this damn battle.
Yes, that's true.
You think so?
Yes, sir.
I think their own interests require that, but... Well, but also, as much as I love them, their interest...
If they conflict.
...is their interest, and I'm not saying we should go away from anyone, but we have... Well, I just like the terrible decision we had to make on the 30th of April.
That's exactly right.
We made it, and I...
You still think that was right, do you?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I know it is.
Even though it didn't help us much, at least it avoided a hurt.
Is that it?
It helped us a great deal.
It helped us a great deal.
How?
Well, it helped us because we are not dealing at this moment with
You know, we're not talking about whether or not individuals leave or take a leave of absence.
We're talking about whether or not they have access to White House cars.
That's a hell of a lot different problem.
It's a lot different problem.
And we're not talking about things that are breaking and impacting on the presidency.
You know, we're talking about strong men involved in this, but we're out there.
But let us not under—understand—
But let us not underestimate, these guys, without our doing a thing, are going to help us, in my opinion.
Oh, I think so.
Yes, sir.
I mean, good God, I mean, because... Look, the best answer to Dean, God damn it, is not us, but frankly, it's Irvingman.
Oh, you don't agree?
Well, I don't know if I agree with that.
I don't disagree with it.
But...
I think this is all part of that cold assessment we're talking about, and it's not important to talk about tonight.
Yeah.
You mean you think that maybe that he can't take him on, huh?
He will.
He'll take Dean on?
Yeah.
Oh, he'll take Dean on.
Yeah.
Yes, sir.
He'll take Dean on.
What I'm getting at is that in our assessment, that has to be part of the whole ballgame.
What others do, as well as
We don't have a battle by battle to fight.
What we have to fight is the overall impression and the overall perception of what it's all about.
And what we have to fight is not the day-to-day
problems that come, but we don't want an erosion of the presidency.
That's right.
We have a broader picture to fight.
I understand that.
And we have it to fight not only from the standpoint of what you want to accomplish and can accomplish as the leader, but also the office of the presidency.
That's what it's about.
And we're dealing with nothing else as far as I'm concerned.
You know, not that it's a very important thing, but I think it is helpful to have just a few little guys like the Stuart Alsops and the Howard Smiths and the rest beginning to try to get a little of this goddamn thing in perspective.
Oh, that's all coming.
That's a part of it.
Do you sense that or not?
I do.
I absolutely do.
And that's a part of the broader picture we're talking about.
Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Absolutely.
Right.
Okay, well, we'll see what it is in the morning, old boy.
Okay.
Good night, sir.