Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 046-120
Date: Sunday, May 20, 1973 at 10:17 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.
Recording device: White House Telephone
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/046-120

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:00] Hello.
[0:01] I have Mr. Ziegler now, sir.
[0:02] Hello.
[0:03] There you are.
[0:04] Hi, Ron.
[0:05] Yes, sir.
[0:05] Did you get home?
[0:06] Just got here, yes, sir.
[0:08] Had a long day, huh?
[0:09] Well, we had a good day, though.
[0:13] How's it looking?
[0:13] Is it getting in shape?
[0:15] I think so.
[0:15] And the guys are working on it tonight.
[0:17] Everyone's enthused about it.
[0:19] And they think it's a good idea.
[0:21] Right.
[0:23] And Bryce is coming in in the morning.
[0:24] We had a long talk with him by phone tonight.
[0:29] going to be in the 7.30 in the morning.
[0:31] We'll look it over so we'll have, you know, another cut at it at 9.
[0:36] Oh, I wonder, would you like for me to take a look at 9?
[0:40] We're shooting for your 9 o'clock point to at least look at, you know, the...
[0:44] I can start at least to take a look.
[0:46] Oh, absolutely.
[0:46] I think it's essential you...
[0:47] So that I get the feel and so forth and so on.
[0:50] Right.
[0:50] How long is it approximately at the present?
[0:52] What are you sort of gaming at?
[0:54] Oh, it's about 20 pages.
[0:56] That's all right.
[0:57] It's a statement, you know.
[1:01] That's right, sir B.
[1:02] What do you try to do?
[1:03] Just give me a quick rundown.
[1:04] Well, we make the point about the climate in 1969 and 70, why— The national security.
[1:11] That's right, why certain steps were taken.
[1:13] And you cover everything from the FBI to the plumbers to— The plumbers, why that was put into effect.
[1:22] I want to be sure that's stated very strongly because it's very important.
[1:26] and Krogh, you know, that we put a national security screen over that damn thing.
[1:31] Do you see what I mean?
[1:32] Right.
[1:34] Which it deserves.
[1:35] We move through it in that way.
[1:38] Then into, you know, the Watergate thing, why that happened, how it happened, and so forth.
[1:46] Do you discuss Watergate?
[1:48] Yes, sir.
[1:49] That's all right.
[1:50] But putting it all in perspective, they're working on it tonight and it'll be ready in the morning.
[1:57] Lynn has a hell of a good idea, Lynn Carmen.
[2:01] Incidentally, too.
[2:02] She really turned into a fighter on this thing.
[2:04] Lynn is brilliant and knows how to fight.
[2:07] She's a great trailer.
[2:08] And I hope we just
[2:10] We just ought to knock that goddamned CIA thing right out of the box.
[2:15] That burns my ass because that was a perfectly normal thing and Luke Haldeman and Ehrlichman are just furious about it because they're ready to—they want the privilege removed so that they can testify on it.
[2:29] Well, all of that's calculated into the— Right.
[2:33] And they want to have an opportunity to appear before the Jackson Committee in order to do it.
[2:37] Well, that's helpful, too, if they want to do that.
[2:42] But that's, you know, we're structuring the thing along the line to put that in perspective.
[2:46] But Lynn's idea is this, as far as the paper, is that if the, you know, without being strident in our opposition to the Irvin Committee, that we set up a team at the White House as we move through this thing.
[3:02] And as the hearings break each day,
[3:06] Not only does Ziegler go out, but maybe Garment goes out, or with me, or with someone else.
[3:13] And we begin to, when McCord makes a statement, we call him on it.
[3:20] We say, okay, now we suggest that we just saw, or on the wire.
[3:24] For example, on McCord, could I suggest something?
[3:28] And I mentioned this, because people are used to being cross-examiners.
[3:36] Did anybody think to ask him what he did before he came here?
[3:41] Well, that's the point, you see.
[3:42] Nobody asked.
[3:43] This son of a bitch was a bugger.
[3:45] He has got a hell of a record, you know.
[3:47] Right, see.
[3:48] And said, were you ever convicted of anything?
[3:50] Did you ever engage in this sort of activity before?
[3:52] That's right.
[3:53] Who hired you?
[3:54] That's right.
[3:54] What do you think, you know?
[3:55] That's right.
[3:56] But if they're not going to do that, see, what we would do in the briefings is call their hand.
[4:02] And demand that they say that they do.
[4:04] Here are some questions that we would like for the...
[4:06] The thing to do, you see, is to—is to do what Ol' Walsh did to McCarthy, just to kill the committee.
[4:16] That's a process.
[4:17] And, uh— And Len's working on that tonight.
[4:20] You see, Len—Len's a real tiger, is he?
[4:23] Oh, boy, I tell you, he's really—he's—he's
[4:26] I don't know, quite frankly, what Bob and John had against him, but this guy is a fine guy.
[4:34] He's one of the hardest— Well, Bob and John were against him for reasons that Len
[4:44] I and everybody agreed that Bob and John had to go.
[4:48] I mean, and they didn't agree.
[4:50] But Len, on the other hand, is a totally loyal presidential man.
[4:54] Absolutely.
[4:55] That's the thing they don't realize.
[4:56] It really is.
[4:58] Don't you agree?
[4:59] Totally.
[4:59] And he's working tonight.
[5:01] He's calling some guy who's an expert on the—
[5:06] rules of evidence and, you know, elements of cross-examination.
[5:11] And we're going to set up a team.
[5:12] This is one thing we're going to talk to them on.
[5:14] This is part of the statement.
[5:16] How we get off of the defensive in the briefings after the statement is made.
[5:22] And then we go up to the Ziegler just out there every day.
[5:25] Right.
[5:25] And they offend him.
[5:26] We can't comment.
[5:27] We can't comment on it.
[5:28] Right.
[5:28] Right.
[5:28] My God, we walk out there.
[5:30] And we say, look.
[5:32] These charges were made.
[5:34] They're fourth-hand here today.
[5:35] And incidentally, I do it, and I do it right at the White House and say, now this is a battle, and they're doing this and that.
[5:41] But the main thing, too, is that if we could get Timmons, a little stronger fellow there, he's strong.
[5:47] But maybe Bryce could get a few people at Bryce's.
[5:52] You know, it's very influential.
[5:53] What does he think?
[5:54] He has some great ideas about how we move on the stage and, you know, how we move privately.
[5:59] And tell some of the
[6:00] congressmen and senators who step up there and say, my God, fellows, this has gotten out of hand.
[6:05] It's going to disgrace the Senate and ruin the country and so forth and so on.
[6:10] And, you know, we can do that after we bridge off of the statement once we get it in line.
[6:16] It's, of course, a complex thing, which we're today on.
[6:19] I know.
[6:20] Terribly complex.
[6:20] And the guys are really
[6:21] really coming through.
[6:23] They really are.
[6:23] We've got a good team and everyone's in sync.
[6:27] I'm glad to hear that.
[6:30] I nailed down, I got a hold of Bob because I thought it was the best one.
[6:37] Erlich was on the west coast.
[6:38] I said, now look here, I just want to be sure on a few points.
[6:42] I said, with regard to whether or not there was ever any discussion of clemency with Erlich, tell me what
[6:50] it was.
[6:52] And Ehrlichman said there was never any discussion as Dean described.
[6:57] He said, one day on the beach in July, before anybody ever thought of this, we were walking along and he just casually said,
[7:11] looking down the road, some of these fellows are going to want clemency.
[7:13] And he said that, and he recorded it afterwards.
[7:18] He said that I said, absolutely not, because doing that would be condoning what they did.
[7:23] Right.
[7:23] And he wants to testify to that.
[7:26] Sure.
[7:26] And let's let him do it.
[7:28] I agree.
[7:29] I mean, let's see.
[7:30] What we want to do is to release executive testimony privilege whenever it helps us and not release us when it doesn't help us.
[7:37] That's right.
[7:39] And I also checked a few other little things, like, oh, we got, you know, like this old, very, it's a little, it is a really tricky one, but, you know, this business about, which is the toughest for John and for all of us, for John didn't know about that damn break-in, you know.
[8:00] But also, Peterson knew about it in the fall of this year.
[8:05] And I didn't learn about it until the spring.
[8:08] And they told me, you see.
[8:10] And then at that point, I started my investigation.
[8:15] And as soon as it was nailed down, we informed the judge, which ain't bad.
[8:21] We didn't do it soon enough, but we did do it.
[8:23] We did try to cover it up.
[8:24] And I think that's not a bad story.
[8:28] No, that's fine for Erlichman to testify.
[8:34] We don't have to get bogged down in those kind of details.
[8:39] That's good for Erlichman to be able to say.
[8:44] Well, see, I don't want them, Ron, to be in a position to say that the president had knowledge that there were these
[8:54] buggers were really cotsy, which I had no knowledge of until March, that there was a picture in the file indicating that they may have been the people that broke in.
[9:08] But God damn it, I didn't know a shit.
[9:10] I couldn't believe Dean on anything.
[9:13] And I knew the Justice Department had it.
[9:16] And I'm going to play that very tough.
[9:19] I think the whole thing right now is to play everything very tough.
[9:22] everybody else is lying.
[9:25] Don't you think so?
[9:26] They're all dealing—see, the only thing we should do, quite frankly, Mr. President, in all of this, is speak very candidly and very directly about the President's knowledge and motivations.
[9:38] And we cannot get, in all fairness to the men involved—and this is going to be—it's going to help them—we cannot get into a position where we are defending
[9:48] You know, the good guys, Bob, Dean, or anyone else.
[9:51] But not because we want to cut them apart, but because the only way that they can operate really now is with a free hand.
[10:00] That's right.
[10:01] As a matter of fact, the curious thing about this whole miserable business is that I actually knew absolutely nothing about the goddamn thing, because I even checked with...
[10:18] Ehrlichman through Haldeman as to whether I knew whether Ehrlichman had told Kambach that he could raise money.
[10:27] And Ehrlichman said, absolutely not.
[10:31] And that Kambach says absolutely not.
[10:33] Kambach says he assumed that maybe I did, but he had heard nothing from me.
[10:38] Mr. President, I'll tell you, there's no one who can testify to that more than I can because
[10:44] I know in our discussions and when the press questions came up and so forth,
[10:53] Number one, you would not have allowed me to make comments that I made if you did have that awareness.
[10:59] You know, I just know that.
[11:00] Well, good God, I wouldn't do it because I'm not that stupid.
[11:04] That's what I mean.
[11:05] Forget my morality.
[11:07] No, but that's the point.
[11:09] And you take the whole business of the damn CIA thing.
[11:12] I'm going to murder them on that if they raise that.
[11:15] I said, good God, of course we investigated the damn CIA.
[11:18] It was ended up right to their ass.
[11:21] And I don't know what they were doing.
[11:22] you know?
[11:23] Right.
[11:24] And that various people say this or that or the other thing, but absolutely nobody ever offered anything, you know, and so forth and so on.
[11:36] Right.
[11:36] See, the strength of the whole thing as we talk tonight and as we're preparing the statement is based totally on your awareness, your motivations, and also—
[11:46] what other people could have interpreted from what you said based on your awareness versus theirs.
[11:51] Oh, one other thing that John told me, interesting thing, he said, John, I said, did I ever discuss amnesty with you?
[11:58] He said, well, first, this fucking bull story that he came into the room and got the word and went out and said, you can go offer it, but not too much.
[12:10] Remember that?
[12:11] He said, that's a total fabrication.
[12:15] He said,
[12:16] there was only one instance which I told you about where amnesty was ever discussed.
[12:24] He said, one day in San Clemente before we went over to Hawaii, I was walking down the beach and we were talking sort of casually about this.
[12:33] And I said, you know, I think a problem that may arise is these guys may want amnesty.
[12:37] And then John now—and I got this this afternoon from him—said that my reaction—I hadn't realized it was so strong—was
[12:46] absolutely categorical.
[12:48] I said, under no circumstances, because if you give amnesty, it's condoning the crime, and I cannot do that.
[12:55] And he's ready to testify to that if I release executive privilege.
[13:00] And I think we ought to do it.
[13:02] Certainly worth considering, yes, sir.
[13:05] So you see, in all this stuff, I don't mean that I'm pure as a white lamb's tail, but God damn it, I just didn't, you know,
[13:14] know about this goddamn bullshit.
[13:16] Right.
[13:18] That's the case we've got to build, and that's the case that's right.
[13:23] Right.
[13:23] The only troublesome part is this business about the Krogh deal and so forth, which I did not learn.
[13:30] I now checked.
[13:33] Burlick did not tell me at the time it occurred.
[13:35] I did not know it in the fall when Dean learned it from Justice.
[13:41] Justice had it all with Ty.
[13:43] And then in March, sometime, Dean said, crew got a problem.
[13:48] And I wondered what the hell the problem was.
[13:51] And so there was a picture.
[13:53] But there wasn't a goddamn thing I could do but to ask justice to check into it.
[14:00] But then the important thing is the bottom line is that, goddammit, we turned the information over to the prosecutor.
[14:08] That's right.
[14:09] And with the Christ, can you complain about that?
[14:12] No way.
[14:13] Oh, they say you delayed, you know.
[14:17] But my point is, we've got all this, but the thing is that when you look at the whole business, it's such a miserable collection of shit that what you have to do is to fight like hell and beat them.
[14:31] That's right.
[14:32] Does everybody agree?
[14:33] Bazaar, what's he say?
[14:36] He agrees totally.
[14:37] Does he?
[14:38] He agrees totally.
[14:39] Yes, sir.
[14:40] Fred's a good guy.
[14:42] in this great southern way.
[14:45] He's a good man.
[14:47] And he's very clever.
[14:48] But you say old Len is one of the best.
[14:55] The guy who I'm really, really proud of anything about is Len Garment.
[15:00] He's a total clear mind and he's a fighter.
[15:06] I'll tell you, he is really a fighter.
[15:08] Does he see all this too?
[15:09] He understands.
[15:10] Oh, yes, sir.
[15:11] He knows that there's no...
[15:12] He knows that there's no finality or crookedness about this good guy.
[15:17] Oh, absolutely.
[15:18] Yes, sir.
[15:21] You know, it's amazing how people perform in situations like this.
[15:24] And he is there.
[15:26] He is right there.
[15:27] Isn't that great?
[15:30] And he's got a good mind.
[15:31] Well, he's a...
[15:33] But I mean, he's a...
[15:35] I don't mean to build one guy.
[15:37] I know, I know.
[15:38] I know Len.
[15:38] But... No, no, no.
[15:41] Len is a smarter bazaar.
[15:43] He's a good man.
[15:45] Yeah, he really is, yeah.
[15:46] You know, worked this— Lazard is more meticulous, but Lynn is more brilliant.
[15:51] And Lynn has worked this thing with Pat and Ray and— Right.
[15:56] A good team.
[15:57] Who's doing the writing?
[15:58] Ray and Pat are working together.
[16:00] Yeah.
[16:01] And Ray'll— Researchers— Ray'll have to do the final writing, but— Yeah.
[16:04] But Pat, Pat can put the guts in.
[16:08] Right.
[16:08] How's Pat's far out?
[16:10] Oh, Pat's fine.
[16:11] Pat's good shit.
[16:17] Well, the way to look at all this is that we work our ass off tomorrow, meet the leaders on Tuesday, give them a hell of a blast.
[16:27] Maybe.
[16:28] Maybe the leaders.
[16:29] We want to talk about that a little bit tomorrow.
[16:31] Oh, yes.
[16:32] It might be another way to do that.
[16:33] Harlow has some thoughts.
[16:34] He wants to look at the draft.
[16:37] Harlow's point is, look, let's consider the leaders.
[16:41] Maybe it's not a leadership meeting in the cabinet room.
[16:43] Maybe it's just a quiet talk with the president and the leaders.
[16:46] You know, the big five?
[16:48] Yes.
[16:49] Over in the Lincoln sitting room or something.
[16:52] Right, right.
[16:52] The leaders meeting—oh, that's great.
[16:55] I would much prefer that because you get them all in.
[16:58] The only thing I want to do is to get Jackson in some way.
[17:01] I don't know.
[17:02] Maybe we do that, but Bryce wants to reserve— I would rather sort of sit with them in the cabinet room.
[17:10] I'd sit around and say, look, I want to talk about this country and where we're going.
[17:14] By God, here we are, boys.
[17:16] See, Bryce, you know, Bryce is pretty good at this stuff.
[17:20] His concern is that if we call in a big advertised leadership meeting, it's going to put too much national crisis on this thing.
[17:27] And he wants to look at this draft tomorrow, and then we'll have some thoughts on that.
[17:32] Same thing we were talking about earlier, speech.
[17:35] Everyone is violent against that.
[17:38] We kicked that around.
[17:38] Oh, God.
[17:39] Totally.
[17:41] I mean, all we can do is that...
[17:43] the consensus seems to be that the East Room press conference is out too.
[17:48] No, no, no.
[17:50] But about a week.
[17:52] Well, we'll see.
[17:52] We'll see.
[17:53] We've got a couple of things we want to kick around with you on that.
[17:56] You know, you get Mollenhoff up there screaming and all that stuff.
[18:00] Wow.
[18:02] Well, as a matter of fact,
[18:04] We can do that at our own good pace, and nobody gives a shit whether we do it or not.
[18:11] We'll look that over and see what we want to do, but the main thing, we don't want to move precipitously on any of this.
[18:17] But you see, one of the advantages of all this is that we get this done Tuesday, and then follow up with the next day.
[18:26] I hope a few stubborn-hearted men in the House and Senate Wednesday, and then Thursday we go to the POWs, which will be a hell of a show.
[18:34] I mean, that's going to blank this shit out.
[18:38] It really will.
[18:39] Because it's, you know, it's dramatic and emotional.
[18:43] Right.
[18:44] And Friday we get the hell out of here and go down for Memorial Day.
[18:48] Right.
[18:48] And everybody else will want to do that and stay there four or five days.
[18:54] Well, that's certainly something we want to look at.
[18:59] I don't disagree.
[19:00] I think we've got to calculate it all out tomorrow.
[19:05] I certainly agree that you should go to Florida toward the end of the week.
[19:10] It's how we weave all of this in, you know.
[19:15] But the main thing is, Ron, the whole group has to think in terms of only one thing.
[19:25] And this is the thing I know that sometimes prices and the finches and the rest, because poor Al said that he had to shore a finch up today.
[19:35] I said, Al, there comes a time when you either fight or you run out.
[19:43] I said, we're going to fight, and we're going to fight to the death.
[19:46] And now, goddammit, everybody's got to know that.
[19:48] And then, by God, that changes the whole atmosphere.
[19:51] That's right.
[19:51] Well, this whole team knows it.
[19:52] Does everybody know this?
[19:53] Absolutely.
[19:54] And by God, we're going to fight and beat their ass off.
[19:57] And the main thing, it's not a desperate battle.
[20:00] No.
[20:00] It's two different battles.
[20:03] There's the desperate battle, and then there's the real...
[20:05] But the point is, you fight in order to win, and you must...
[20:09] But the main thing is, if you've ever given the impression...
[20:13] They say, well, what do you think about resignation or what do you think about all this?
[20:18] You can simply say, you're ridiculous.
[20:21] Crap.
[20:21] I'm ridiculous.
[20:23] Yes, sir.
[20:24] Because when you really come down to it, good God, you know, they think of the Russians, they think of the Chinese, they think of everything else.
[20:33] Well, look at the Gallup poll today.
[20:34] What was that?
[20:36] The economy's up, you know, the concerns about the economy is up, and the concern about Watergate and all the rest is down about 16%.
[20:43] Oh, this?
[20:45] Yes, sir.
[20:46] It's a gallop bull today.
[20:51] So you had foreign policy on it, too?
[20:54] No.
[20:54] Yes, foreign policy was up there, good.
[20:56] But people, you see, people don't register concern about foreign policy because they know you're handling it.
[21:04] Yeah.
[21:05] I remember it had a very high Gallup poll on the—about the economy, if you recall.
[21:12] Right.
[21:12] Seventy percent.
[21:14] I'd like to see it.
[21:15] I'll tell you, I'd really like to see some dramatic movement on the economy.
[21:21] Yeah, I know, I know.
[21:21] I've been—I just talked to Hague, and we've been kicking Schultz in the ass, you know.
[21:28] Well, I don't know about the personalities.
[21:30] I'm just talking about the policy itself.
[21:33] I don't know about the economy, but from just a public relations standpoint, I'd sure like to knock one out.
[21:44] But you're not discouraged, huh?
[21:46] Not at all.
[21:46] No one is.
[21:47] You would be very proud of these people, the way they're working on this and the way they're acting and the way they're reacting.
[21:58] Well, the main thing is you've got to look at the alternatives.
[22:04] What in the name of God would happen to this country if a president should say, well, I'm sorry, I'm a little tired of the job and all this and that.
[22:16] This country could become a part of the scenes.
[22:19] And the important thing is the Russians would seize it, believe me.
[22:26] Absolutely they would.
[22:27] And that's what the people have to realize.
[22:30] and the goddamn New York Times and all the other assholes that call for resignation ought to start thinking about this.
[22:38] Well, I think they are calling for it.
[22:42] I'll tell you another thing, and Al's done a very effective job of this, and I don't know that we have to do too much more.
[22:49] A lot of people in this town, Al makes a good point.
[22:54] You know, we've been kind of moving the line in our own little way about, well, you better watch out because we're going to let it all hang out.
[23:01] Oh, boy.
[23:02] Oh, listen.
[23:03] Not only about that, but also, put on a note, the president is going to declassify the bear pigs and he's going to declassify the animals.
[23:15] He's going to declassify the whole Kennedy-Johnson period.
[23:20] Right.
[23:20] Well, that's what I mean.
[23:21] Well, Mr. President, it's out.
[23:23] Now, it's out in a way that it's not blatantly out.
[23:26] And Al makes a good point.
[23:28] When people think this might happen, you know, anyone who is guilty, if they don't know what you have or what you're going to put out,
[23:39] And we've got this stuff, we moved on that today.
[23:43] It's moving around us.
[23:45] And they are careful.
[23:47] The one thing that hasn't moved, Ron, is that we have made a study and found that thousands of documents have been destroyed.
[24:02] That's true, you know.
[24:04] See, Johnson took them out.
[24:06] I'd rather not people to know that they've been destroyed.
[24:08] I'd rather make them think that we have more in the bag.
[24:11] Okay.
[24:12] Because, look, the point is that if someone is concerned about information getting out, then they are going to feel in their own consciousness that we've got a lot more of them than even we do have.
[24:27] And this is what people are concerned about.
[24:29] And let's just let them stew around a little bit.
[24:31] Joe, the word's gone out.
[24:33] through Califano, through Joe Alsop, and through different ways.
[24:39] You know, don't push us too far, fellas, because if you do...
[24:44] In other words, we're going to hang it all out.
[24:46] That's right.
[24:48] Hang out, and also hang out the Johnson tactics and the 68 campaign.
[24:55] That's right, that's right.
[24:57] Subtly moving out, subtly moving out.
[25:00] We'll let that go.
[25:02] president doesn't want to do it because of his interest in the country.
[25:06] Right.
[25:07] Okay.
[25:09] Okay.
[25:09] Well, we'll be ready tomorrow.
[25:11] But your spirit's good, huh?
[25:12] Yes, sir.
[25:12] Everyone's good.
[25:14] The thing is, your spirit should be good for a reason that none of you would appreciate.
[25:20] All of you say you crashed
[25:21] Wouldn't our spirit be good if we didn't have anything to do but get out and play golf or ping pong?
[25:27] You're a bunch of goddamn fools.
[25:29] No one thinks your spirit is no good unless you're out fighting a goddamn battle.
[25:34] That's right.
[25:34] Right?
[25:35] That's right.
[25:36] Okay.
[25:36] Yes, sir.
[25:37] Okay.