{"conversationCode":"046-173","tapeNumber":46,"conversationNumber":173,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-046-173","startDateTime":"1973-05-23T19:58:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1973-05-23T20:01:00.000Z","startDate":"23-May-1973","startTime":"3:58 PM","endDate":"23-May-1973","endTime":"4:01 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.;","description":"On May 23, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 3:58 pm to 4:01 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 046-173 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":"5.5","chronRelease":"Fifth Chronological Release: Part V","chronReleaseDate":"21-Aug-2013","aogpRelease":"Abuse of Governmental Power Release","aogpSegment":"Segment 0","lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 46-173\n\f                                               -102-\n\n                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM\n\nDate: May 23, 1973\nTime: 3:58 pm - 4:01 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.\n\n[See also Conversation No. 439-46]\n\n     President’s schedule\n           -Congressional leaders’ meeting\n           -Press coverage\n\n     Congressional relations\n          -Sustaining veto\n          -Elliot L. Richardson’s confirmation\n\n     Watergate\n          -Gerald Alch testimony before Ervin Committee\n               -Relationship with James W. McCord, Jr.\n               -Statement on McCord’s testimony\n               -Ervin Committee hearings\n               -Statement on McCord’s testimony\n          -McCord’s activities\n               -Compared with John W. Dean, III\n\n     President’s schedule\n           -Camp David\n                 -Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft\n                 -President’s forthcoming press briefing\n                 -Press’s possible reaction\n           -President’s mood","filename":["046-173.mp3"],"tapeStart":"","tapeEnd":"","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Ziegler, Ronald L."],"prevCode":"046-172","nextCode":"046-174","transcript":[{"start":0.54,"end":1.58,"text":"Hello."},{"start":1.6,"end":1.84,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":2.62,"end":3.04,"text":"Hi, Ron."},{"start":3.18,"end":8.27,"text":"I have to go over to Blair House, as you know, for a meeting with those Congressmen at 5 o'clock."},{"start":8.99,"end":9.93,"text":"I'll be coming out about 6."},{"start":10.13,"end":16.5,"text":"I hope you can keep the press, you know, at a reasonable distance."},{"start":16.62,"end":19.68,"text":"I don't want to be assaulted when I come out."},{"start":19.77,"end":19.98,"text":"No, no."},{"start":20,"end":21.71,"text":"We'll handle that, sir."},{"start":21.73,"end":24.33,"text":"You know, say, well, when are you going to do this or that?"},{"start":24.47,"end":25.07,"text":"Right."},{"start":25.09,"end":26.27,"text":"And I think it'll be all right."},{"start":26.32,"end":26.95,"text":"Don't you think so?"},{"start":27.5,"end":27.68,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":27.7,"end":28.74,"text":"We had a good day on the Hill."},{"start":29.55,"end":33.95,"text":"Oh, yeah, we won the veto, and Pat Richardson came through the committee, right?"},{"start":33.99,"end":34.53,"text":"That's right, yeah."},{"start":35.57,"end":37.27,"text":"And Olch just destroyed McCord."},{"start":38.07,"end":39.15,"text":"Was totally destroyed."},{"start":39.17,"end":39.73,"text":"What did he say?"},{"start":40.17,"end":41.24,"text":"He's McCord's attorney."},{"start":42.72,"end":43.32,"text":"Who is Olch?"},{"start":43.92,"end":49.14,"text":"Olch is the fellow who formerly represented McCord."},{"start":50.06,"end":51.02,"text":"Oh, yeah, but not now."},{"start":51.49,"end":57.93,"text":"No, and Olch just went line by line through McCord's testimony."},{"start":58.12,"end":74.3,"text":"and just cut his throat and he referred to a book that the guard is already writing you know with chapter by chapter through the book and it and it just just totally destroyed him"},{"start":74.7,"end":79.29,"text":"And so we've got more confusion now within the third day of hearings."},{"start":79.99,"end":86.44,"text":"There is direct, absolute conflict between Ulch and McCord on some of the key testimony."},{"start":87.28,"end":89.82,"text":"What kind of stuff did Ulch destroy him on, Ron?"},{"start":89.96,"end":96.93,"text":"Just word, you know, almost paragraph by paragraph refuting what McCord had said."},{"start":96.97,"end":99.51,"text":"On what issues?"},{"start":99.79,"end":102.72,"text":"On the issues primarily..."},{"start":102.83,"end":112.59,"text":"what he was told in certain settings regarding, you know, direction of the operation and those types of things."},{"start":112.75,"end":115.91,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":115.93,"end":116.31,"text":"Oh, boy."},{"start":116.86,"end":125.65,"text":"Well, anyway, there's a hell of a lot of lying going on, although we know that McCord is setting other people up just as he is."},{"start":126.05,"end":127.59,"text":"Don't you think so?"},{"start":127.61,"end":128.35,"text":"Well, apparently so."},{"start":128.43,"end":130.38,"text":"I mean, that's the..."},{"start":134.41,"end":135.83,"text":"I'm glad you came through."},{"start":135.85,"end":137.47,"text":"I'm going to have a little chat with them."},{"start":137.49,"end":147.59,"text":"After this thing tonight, Ron, so that you can know, I'm just going to take a quick trip to Camp David, mainly to get some thoughts together for the briefing tomorrow."},{"start":147.69,"end":148.79,"text":"I haven't had a chance."},{"start":148.83,"end":152.24,"text":"And we'll have, I think, Scowcroft is going to go along."},{"start":152.88,"end":157.48,"text":"So that you can be sure to tell the President's going up to write us, work on his remarks for tomorrow."},{"start":157.64,"end":158.65,"text":"Right."},{"start":158.78,"end":159.81,"text":"Another reason I'm going is that"},{"start":160.7,"end":165.67,"text":"confusion in the White House right now with that party that I will get a good night's sleep and I need one right now."},{"start":165.73,"end":165.95,"text":"Right."},{"start":165.97,"end":166.25,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":166.31,"end":167.51,"text":"That's okay."},{"start":167.53,"end":167.84,"text":"Okay."},{"start":167.96,"end":169.74,"text":"I don't want to think I'm up there lonely or anything."},{"start":169.82,"end":171.02,"text":"No, I understand."},{"start":171.04,"end":171.64,"text":"All right."},{"start":171.7,"end":172.26,"text":"Thank you, Ron."},{"start":172.28,"end":179.7,"text":"Thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Ronald Ziegler discussed upcoming public relations strategies, including managing the press during the President's scheduled meeting with Congressional leaders at Blair House. They reviewed recent political successes, specifically the sustainment of a presidential veto and the confirmation progress of Elliot Richardson. Additionally, Ziegler briefed the President on Gerald Alch’s testimony before the Ervin Committee, which challenged the credibility of James McCord’s Watergate-related accounts. Nixon concluded the call by announcing his intention to travel to Camp David with Brent Scowcroft to prepare for a press briefing and secure some rest.","topics":["Watergate","Congressional relations","Press management","Ervin Committee","James McCord","Presidential schedule"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T07:36:35.625Z"},"topicSlugs":["watergate","congressional-relations","press-management","ervin-committee","james-mccord","presidential-schedule"],"audioDurationSec":180,"audioFiles":[{"file":"046-173.mp3","bytes":5752832,"durationSec":179.67,"bitrate":256155,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:20:04.103Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:45.008Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/046-173.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/046-173","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/46/conversation-046-173","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}