Nixon, Agnew & Cabinet officers on Middle East diplomacy

1:12:09Well, let me also say that the president's made in the Middle East.
1:12:16In fact, we were able to cease fire.
1:12:20It's gotten a tremendous amount of attention, and although it hasn't been so really appreciated in this country, because of our cooperation here now, I think more and more it's going to come to the fore, because in these other countries, it's been almost ten months since we've been fighting, at least, and if somehow we can muddle through and keep it,
1:12:45It plays so there is no continuation of fighting.
1:12:48I think this is going to be very useful.
1:12:54Exhibit to point to in the election, because really the rest of the world, the United States gets total credit for its opinion.
1:13:02And the fact that there were significant right-wing solutions in the international press, I think you might be interested in seeing some of the accounts in the international press, even for the exception of the Soviet Union.
1:13:17Even France and London, they were a little skeptical.
1:13:22This is true in almost every country.
1:13:23Let me start out by saying that this meeting was in London, which is about the CEDAW meeting.
1:13:31CEDAW is an organization, Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, consisting of Thailand, and I say Thailand first because really now that's what it's all about, the Philippines.
1:13:51Australia, Brazil and United Kingdom back to the United States.
1:14:00Because the French have dropped out, and because of the Indochina conflict, the CEDA organization provides commitments of all agencies to their secretaries to take seriously and to take some action.
1:14:21The fact is, though, that it involves piloting,
1:14:27Yes, it's a very important organization in that sense, because Thailand is a key country here in that part of the world.
1:14:37But also because it would present a major problem for us if Thailand was attacked by an outside force, particularly by Red Chinese.
1:14:47The Philippines are less important now in terms of how it's going to be attacked.
1:14:54The government is not very strong.
1:14:58The United Kingdom has really been active, and so we financially and militarily haven't played a very active role in that area.
1:15:06In fact, you know the Labour Party has announced a policy
1:15:11So, the attitude of the Thai government is particularly important.
1:15:34And without going into the depths, this was the best meeting I had a chance to speak to.
1:15:41You're not calling this appointment a good plan.
1:15:43It was very good, and it was very hard to go up against the policies you presented.
1:15:48You're carrying out a lot of excellent things, particularly in Florida.
1:15:55There's a policy for China, but it's just moderate, just enough, not too much.
1:16:00It helped him with his problems, and so forth.
1:16:03We were, as you might expect to do, royally entertained by the Queen, and supported by everybody else in London.
1:16:10It was quite a successful meeting.
1:16:13All the nations there were highly supportive of Preston.
1:16:19Then we want to anchor Turkey with a central regional organization.
1:16:23There's another organization, a similar character, involving Iran, Turkey, and
1:16:34Pakistan is Pakistan, I say Pakistan is Pakistan, because initially it was an organization designed to protect against communist China.
1:16:42Now because of, I mean, of the Soviet Union, now because of Pakistan's involvement with the Soviet Union and with China, they have not put in, they have not paid on it.
1:16:55Obviously, so they're concerned, because they would have used it with India.
1:17:00But Turkey and Iran are very important.
1:17:03They are a very important country.
1:17:05They are a strong country.
1:17:09I might say this connection is that working with this type of government contrasts to the last in England.
1:17:21It's a great pleasure.
1:17:23Not that the other government wasn't cooperative.
1:17:32But this government sees eye-to-eye with us on every foreign policy and almost without exception.
1:17:40Furthermore, they go to bat when it comes.
1:17:44LHQ made some of the best statements since the meeting about the threat of the Soviet Union and Communist China that I've ever heard.
1:17:53So we didn't have to bag him along, as we used to have to do in the case of the Labour government, to sort of support us.
1:18:00We didn't have a killing there.
1:18:01We were reluctantly supporting each other, feeling they were out in front cheering for us.
1:18:06They gave a reference to him for what he's doing.
1:18:11L.A. Cube made one reference to Vietnam, saying he thought it was a masterful performance, getting out and providing stability for the U.S. at the same time, so forth.
1:18:23Turning out to the government of Turkey, it was really referring to seeing a new government of Turkey.
1:18:30The present prime minister is a much stronger man than the previous one.
1:18:36He has martial law in effect now.
1:18:40He got the license to go to the parliament, and then he promised his hand when he declared martial law.
1:18:46It's not a very popular move.
1:18:49He had a lot of opposition among young people when he started, and that's fighting now.
1:18:52He has the military behind him.
1:18:54He's very pro-West, he's very pro-United States.
1:18:58I had a long talk with him about the opium problem.
1:19:01He agrees with us, he's going to do everything he can.
1:19:05He had a news conference, and I left saying so.
1:19:09I said, we're not going to retaliate against you, we're not going to expect anything, but we think you should do something.
1:19:20I said, not just for us, but it's a world problem.
1:19:22You can become a world statesman if you can stop this.
1:19:25You can have Turkey out in front, everybody in the world associates drugs with Turkey.
1:19:29You can eliminate that and you'll be remembered for having done it.
1:19:33And the president told me that
1:19:35where I took this bit that we would help financially to be supportive to you.
1:19:41And he said, I understand.
1:19:43He said, I think that's the right approach.
1:19:44He said, I'll do something about it.
1:19:46He said, he had a press conference the next day, and he was very good at thinking about it.
1:19:50So I was quite encouraged.
1:19:53Well, there again, I think the central meeting was a good one.
1:19:59I think Turkey ended on.
1:20:00We were both in a good humor there.
1:20:04One of Mr. Ron is quite a guy.
1:20:05He was married to Michelle Jordan one time.
1:20:09He felt that it was a good meeting, and both Ron and I was very pleased about how we settled the oil matter.
1:20:16They were particularly pleased about the exemption we got, about having sent John Jagger over.
1:20:21They gave us high marks for helping work it out, and our relationship with Ron and Chuckie, I think, are excellent now, much better than it had been.
1:20:29In the absence of a leader, like the present leader of Turkey, I don't know what we would have done, because the country is really backward, they have a lot of trouble with young people, and it's a good problem, and all the other things, but they, I think, now have a good leader, and if he can stay in his harness, he'll be a wonderful asset for the West.
1:20:46Did you know they're tremendous fighters?
1:20:50You know, they're great fighters, and they've got a good army, and he's prepared to use them in the army.
1:20:56Well, that doesn't trouble me at all.
1:20:59Turkey, we went to Saudi Arabia, and that's where it's changed.
1:21:03Saudi Arabia is way out of the Middle Ages.
1:21:07King Faisal is still in command.
1:21:11Not in very good health, but he's still running it, I'm sure.
1:21:15We went to Riyadh, it was like 5 or 10, something like that.
1:21:20Got a lot of new buildings there.
1:21:24His cabin consists of his relatives, and
1:21:30They're all fairly young people, fairly intelligent, vigorous people.
1:21:35His concern is principally about Jerusalem.
1:21:38He's also interested in refugees.
1:21:42He's not much interested in the quarrel between Egypt and Israel, but he's quite interested in Jerusalem.
1:21:46Joyce, sometime when we have a chance, we're going to talk about Jerusalem, because it not only has a tremendous emotional and spiritual impact in that part of the world, but it also does in this country.
1:21:59You've got to take that into consideration.
1:22:01It's a very strong Catholic feeling that what's happening in Jerusalem is a crime.
1:22:07And you've got to take some action to see if we can't change that.
1:22:14Faisal is, as I agree with Tania, actually the biggest...
1:22:22Not Spacel, we tend to call him Spice, but Spacel, said his heir apparent, his father, F.A.U.D., a very good, young, attractive fellow,
1:22:35In fact, he's just been responsible for the arrest of about 300 people in the army and other places that were out to overthrow the government.
1:22:51And he's used a lot of modern methods.
1:22:53He's almost as good as J. Andrew Boone.
1:22:57He didn't put that after that.
1:23:00Good best day.
1:23:03And Faisal said,
1:23:05I just want you to know in the United States that we think the Middle East is tremendously important.
1:23:12We think Jerusalem is important.
1:23:16We're upset about what happened.
1:23:18We don't like your policy very well.
1:23:21We like what you're doing now.
1:23:23But I want you to know, no matter what happens, no matter what you do, however you play your hand, we're going to support you.
1:23:34So don't ever forget that.
1:23:37He said, we've got tremendous respect for the United States.
1:23:41We have 2,000 Saudi Arabian students in the United States.
1:23:45When you do anything for us, if you agree to build buildings, we know it's going to be a good building.
1:23:49We know it.
1:23:50He says, your American business people are tough negotiators, but once they negotiate, they perform.
1:23:55We know that's distrusting.
1:23:57He said, you never have to worry about our support.
1:24:01And I think, John, you correct me on this, but probably Saudi Arabia has the greatest oil reserves in the country.
1:24:07The king is about to discuss the...
1:25:03He said, would you like to see the city?
1:25:06And I said, sure.
1:25:06He had conditions of not being able to run around the city.
1:25:10He said, fine, get in.
1:25:11So he jumped in his car and drove me all around the city himself.
1:25:15Then I said the next day, I said, I don't want to come all this way out here and not see some things.
1:25:21I want to see the country.
1:25:24And he said, fine.
1:25:25So he got this top military man who's extremely capable.
1:25:29He's a Bedouin, and they're tough.
1:25:32And they flew me from the Dead Sea all the way up to the Sea of Galilee.
1:25:38And east back to Jordan.
1:25:41These men were fascinated to fly below sea level.
1:25:44We were 500 feet below sea level in the helicopter.
1:25:47The Dead Sea flew up east back to Jordan, along the side of the place where Christ was baptized, up to the Sea of Galilee.
1:25:55Landing opposite the Golan Heights on the Jordanian side.
1:25:59Got a beautiful view of Israel, the whole area.
1:26:03Then we flew over the northern part of Jordan where they had tank battles with Syrians.
1:26:07Saw that tank slots were still there.
1:26:10Flew over the border of Syria.
1:26:12Headed back, and when I left Jordan, I shook hands with King at lunch and said goodbye.
1:26:18He said, well, don't say goodbye.
1:26:20I'll go with you.
1:26:21And I said, oh, well, I don't do that.
1:26:23He said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm going to do that.
1:26:24He said, come on.
1:26:26So we went up the hill.
1:26:28Got in his helicopter.
1:26:30He flew me to the airport in his helicopter.
1:26:32Planted it.
1:26:36No jobs, no prospects, nothing to look forward to.
1:26:47Nobody's really giving much thought to them.
1:26:52They're hostile.
1:26:54My wife visited a couple of them.
1:26:59She said it was just tragic.
1:27:04He's concerned about that because in the long run he can't survive.
1:27:09Well, anyway, then I want to...
1:27:11He's a great friend.
1:27:12He supports it.
1:27:13He feels a little left out at the moment.
1:27:17But he's a good friend and will continue to be.
1:27:22He's highly respected in the area.
1:27:26Then we went to Lebanon, which is a very tough country.
1:27:31They have no government strength.
1:27:34The cabinet consists of different, a combination of different religious groups, and that's determined by the constitution.
1:27:39They have to have a Christian president, an Arab prime minister, then they have a division in the cabinet according to religious sects.
1:27:47They have a small army with no strength.
1:27:51Their army consists of about 12,000 men, and they don't really have sufficient strength to deal with the federation.
1:27:57The federation are now making Lebanon...
1:28:00for the headquarters for their operations, and the present is fearful.
1:28:05The whole cabin is fearful.
1:28:08They're fearful of Israel and fearful of the Fed.
1:28:14They know their system is not a very good one, and yet they are the bridge between East and West.
1:28:19They're very smart.
1:28:20The most advanced of the countries.
1:28:24And somehow we have to strengthen their hand.
1:28:27And it asks for
1:28:29military, some more military assistance to help them deal with the general situation, and I think we should give it to them again, that's pretty much.
1:28:37But they can't, if they're, the way, they're in the same position Jordan was in a year ago, and that is they don't have a government, they just have a, at least they don't think they have a government, the government's not strong enough to do anything.
1:28:47In fact, when I went to the airport, I had, I was the first fellow that was gone from the airport to
1:28:53To the city by automobile.
1:28:55I gave each a choice.
1:28:56Do you want to go by helicopter or automobile?
1:28:58And they said it's dangerous by automobile.
1:29:00And I said let's go by automobile.
1:29:02And it was surprising that that was the headline story.
1:29:05Secretary of State rides by automobile.
1:29:09And...
1:29:10She had two tanks.
1:29:12A tank on her side, eating her.
1:29:14It looked like an invading army.
1:29:18So the next day, I said to everyone, it didn't seem to me, everybody was cheering, it seemed very friendly.
1:29:25So the next day, I took a leap out of the president's book, I've seen him do this.
1:29:30So we're going along with the tanks and everything, and I said to my security man,
1:29:35I said, I gotta stop downtown, go to some busy section, let me stop.
1:29:38He said, you can't do that, we gotta stay.
1:29:40I said, come on, I wanna stop.
1:29:42I said, furthermore, they tell me there's a shoeshine course on the street, so I had a shoeshine boy, and I wanna get a shoeshine, and so I got him, and I was screaming, he says, yeah, you know, he said, this is your course, and he said, the secretary said he wants a shoeshine.
1:29:59So anyway, I stopped at this street in the middle of the day room,
1:30:05And within, well, before I had one true kind, there was a crowd of 500-600 young people gathered, applauding, cheering, yelling my name, saying hello to the United States.
1:30:17And when I left, I bet there was a lot of people in apartment buildings all over cheering, yelling at us.
1:30:25Now this was a country where they all said you couldn't do it anymore because, you know, you were just screaming.
1:30:30So there again is a tremendous best worker of will in the United States.
1:30:35How about this?
1:30:37Egypt, and that's a fascinating country.
1:30:39One statistic you might be interested in, George, there are more Egyptians born since the 67th war than the whole population of Israel.
1:30:51So that shows the problem that Israel is going to have if they don't, we can't work out a peaceful settlement.
1:30:58You just can't have that number of hostile neighbors over a long period of time and survive
1:31:06You can get along, but you can't survive in the nation.
1:31:10I know this will be under attack, but the indefinite future must be something to be worked on.
1:31:15Sadat is a very interesting man.
1:31:18He's not what we expected at all.
1:31:21We never used to, we used to do reports of Sadat.
1:31:23Incidentally, they got rid of Ali Sabri just before I got there, and he told me my visit was responsible, not responsible for the Jew, but responsible for the tiny, because he said, I couldn't wait.
1:31:36If I got rid of him, I'm at the Jew camp.
1:31:39Everybody would say it was because of your visit, so I had to hasten his departure.
1:31:47He is an attractive fellow, speaks English very well.
1:31:53You met him, didn't you?
1:31:55Yes, right.
1:31:57Of course, that was at the time of the funeral, so he was...
1:32:00This time he started off the conversation by saying, Mr. Secretary, we all have different systems of government.
1:32:09He said, in this country, the system is I am the president, I can make decisions.
1:32:16Anything I want to do, I can do.
1:32:17So when I speak, he said, that's the voice of the country.
1:32:20I just want you to know, I'm the boss, I'm in charge, I make the decisions.
1:32:25He said, don't believe anything else.
1:32:29Thank you very much.
1:32:33Well, I work with all the things he says.
1:32:35He's a very likeable man.
1:32:37Very likeable.
1:32:37Very straightforward.
1:32:40He professes an interest to improve his relations with us.
1:32:43He says he's a likeable Soviet Union in the sense that he has to rely so heavily on us.
1:32:50He says he's prepared to disassociate himself with them up to a point if something can be worked out.
1:32:58He says they helped him in a time of need.
1:33:00He had to defend his country.
1:33:02He had to turn somewhere, and that was the only place he could turn.
1:33:06He says that he is paying for everything he gets in hard cash, sterling.
1:33:11He says he pays the Russians who are there, their salaries, on the SAM sites.
1:33:23So he says all the right things, and he says he has great respect for our country.
1:33:28He's married to an English woman.
1:33:32He's very attractive.
1:33:35He indicates flexibility.
1:33:36He's willing to consider any reasonable practical solution to problems and so forth.
1:33:41I won't go into the details.
1:33:45We don't have time.
1:33:46At least it's encouraging that he was so friendly, that his people were so friendly.
1:33:53I must say, of all the countries I've visited, I think the Egyptians were the friendliest, uniformly.
1:34:00They gathered the people on the street, and not demonstrably so, they just went in.
1:34:08There wasn't a possible sign.
1:34:11Incidentally, if you didn't know that there was not going to be a fire, after you don't see a sign of Masser, nobody mentioned him.
1:34:18I sat down and raised the question about him.
1:34:22I said I wanted to see Mrs. Masser, so they said fine, but they didn't suggest it, so...
1:34:28He had no intention of presiding next to shadow.
1:34:35Men went to both fatalities in Jerusalem.
1:34:39He had said that both of these countries had tremendous fatality and great ability to people.
1:34:49The government is in a mood now of complete uncertainty.
1:34:58They can't make decisions.
1:35:00I met twice in a whole cabin, headlong, a couple of times rather.
1:35:07It's a good word.
1:35:10Changes.
1:35:10Difficult.
1:35:12The first meeting was particularly difficult.
1:35:14Because actually when you analyze the position, what they say is you just give us the arms and the money and leave us alone.
1:35:26And I pointed out to them that we can't do that.
1:35:33They don't have any support in the world at all for that present position, 1796.
1:35:42I pointed that out to Mrs. Mayor.
1:35:43I said, now if your position is asylum, you've got to be able to get some support somewhere in some part of the world.
1:35:49She said, well, Ethiopia supports this in private.
1:35:52They want it public.
1:35:53Well, I said, that's not going to be much help.
1:35:56You've got to be able to find some nation, if you want the United States to help you, you've got to be able to find some nation that supports your present position.
1:36:08Now, essentially what's happened is, for years the United States has urged the Arabs to say, we're prepared to live in peace with Israel, provided we've got our land back.
1:36:23And that's always been a stumbling block.
1:36:25The Arab world would never say that Israel had a right of sovereignty, Israel had a right to continue to exist, and that they would not interfere in what Israel's right to exist.
1:36:36Now, Sadat has said that.
1:36:38Sadat has said all the things that everyone has asked him to say since 1967.
1:36:43And he's done it in opposition to many of the Arab leaders.
1:36:48In fact, Sadat told me Qaddafi from Libya just called him a traitor for doing what he's done.
1:36:54So he says, lookit, I've done everything the United Nations wanted me to do.
1:36:57I've done everything you, the United States, wanted me to do.
1:37:01The whole world has promised that if we're willing to sign a peace agreement with Israel, then we'll get our land back, or at least most of our land back.
1:37:10Now he says, we find out that that isn't true.
1:37:13We're convinced now that Israel only wants to keep all the land.
1:37:18And we're not going to approve of that.
1:37:20We're just not.
1:37:22And it's true.
1:37:23That's his position.
1:37:24So I said to Israel, you've got to come up with something.
1:37:28You just can't stand taft because we're going to have a major blow-up in the United Nations this fall.
1:37:33Nobody, I mean, England is another CETO country.
1:37:37It's another CETO.
1:37:38Everyone says Israel's position is indispensable.
1:37:43We had a second meeting with the cabinet.
1:37:45It was much better.
1:37:46It was a business-like meeting.
1:37:48We actually got down to exchanging ideas.
1:37:49It's just like it was.
1:37:52I met with the Knesset, at least the foreign relations in the face of the Knesset.
1:37:57They're a tough bunch.
1:37:58They don't give an inch.
1:38:01You can see why Mrs. Miller has trouble making decisions, because she has to get approval from the Knesset.
1:38:09They've got all kinds of points of view.
1:38:13All they end up saying is, because we can't agree, let's just stay where we are.
1:38:17I said, we can't accept that.
1:38:20It's harmful to the United States interests.
1:38:21We're going to lose our friends all over the world, and particularly the Arab world.
1:38:26And if we lose Iran and Saudi Arabia and all these countries, in the long run it's going to be very detrimental.
1:38:32It wouldn't be so detrimental immediately, but that's where Europe gets its oil.
1:38:37Japan is 95% dependent on that oil.
1:38:40And we just can't afford to back Israel no matter what they do, and without any other supporters in the world.
1:38:49without losing a great deal in terms of foreign affairs.
1:38:54When we left the, I must say, and I thought possibly because some of the stories have been written on me personally, that it might be hostility to me in Israel.
1:39:03Not at all.
1:39:04It was very warm support, and every time I got back to the hotel, it was very warm.
1:39:09It was 130 at night, there was about 400 people.
1:39:12Applause.
1:39:15This is a political campaign so that Israel still appreciates the support that the United States gives to it.
1:39:26As you know, we've gone, I had Joe Sesto go back and say, so now I can.
1:39:30We've still got that ball in play.
1:39:32If we can keep the ceasefire in effect, if we keep trying all these different initiatives, something's going to work out one of these days.
1:39:40And if we can get a little more time so that we don't have this fighting started,
1:39:46til after the election.
1:39:47But then I think we've got to make sure to even if we don't settle, but I do think we've got to put a lot of emphasis on Jerusalem, because we really have a feeling, and then I'll express it, but there's no doubt it's there, if you read it in those papers, that because of the problems here we have politically, particularly because there's support here, that there's no one to offset that.
1:40:08You know, they say, well, how many Arab voters have we got?
1:40:12Well, there are a lot of Catholic voters,
1:40:14Charlie's very concerned about Russia.
1:40:17I stopped in Italy on the way back, and Italy's very concerned, and the Pope himself.
1:40:21Incidentally, the Italian government was stronger than us six months ago.
1:40:25It looks as if it's going to make it.
1:40:29I can't tell for sure, but I'm just quite sure it's not.
1:40:33But I spent a ten-hour audience with the Pope for an hour.
1:40:35He stood up and made a speech for five or six minutes in front of all of our groups.
1:40:42highly complimenting the president in the position we take him in our efforts in the Middle East, and how much it meant to him, and how much it meant to Chris in the world of football.
1:40:52If that had ever been a public statement, it would have been worth, you know, three million votes.
1:40:58It was absolutely perfect.
1:41:00My wife was tearful as a result.
1:41:02But he emphasized how vitally important Jerusalem is to the Catholics,
1:41:09how much they resent the fact that it appears that the character of Jerusalem is being changed, that it's being cheapened by the buildings and so forth.
1:41:21So he pleaded with us to help in any way that we could.
1:41:24I told him that we could do it, we could do that.
1:41:29This is the third time I've introduced him.
1:41:30I've never seen him more supportive of the United States.
1:41:34I think all in all it was worthwhile.
1:41:37The press started out very hostile
1:41:40Ended up really quite satisfied that at least the men were alive and had done the right thing.
1:41:47And I think that this is an area of the world where we can keep the ceasefire alive, so no fighting is going on at the time of the election.
1:41:56It's going to be a big plus.
1:41:59I agree.
1:42:00Unusual, the success of the trip, to me, in spite of all the sensational news that was around here, it got excellent.
1:42:07It really did.
1:42:08Quite a lot of front and back coverage ahead of time, and we were having all the disturbances here.
1:42:19I think it was a very successful trip, a very difficult one, but I think we really handled it well, and I'm sure that everybody in the cabinet is pleased to have the first-hand record, particularly of the new personalities, and I don't know personally if Sadat may have any.
1:42:39Now we have a report on the desalination of Dr. Green, and
1:42:47Do you want to move up here somewhere?
1:42:49I'd like to risk the people on the outside, Mr. President.
1:42:53It's scheduled to July.
1:42:55Well, the thing that's going into my hand is that the contestant has one very interesting story.
1:43:05It should have been what I said before, that she's committed murder.
1:43:09And he was...
1:43:12They were going to ask questions, so that he's making a speech.
1:43:14His speech was going on about 20 minutes in.
1:43:17And he started quoting something I said, so I dropped it.
1:43:19So, you know, I never said anything like that.
1:43:23He said, oh, yes, you did.
1:43:25I said, this is a major speech of mine.
1:43:27I wrote it.
1:43:27I know what I said.
1:43:28I didn't say that.
1:43:29And he said, well, I know what I did.
1:43:31I said, look, it's my speech.
1:43:33I wrote it.
1:43:33I didn't say it.
1:43:34I don't get it.
1:43:35He said, look, the rules look in essence.
1:43:38You know that I'm being permitted to continue.
1:43:40I said, I don't care about the rules of the country.
1:43:43I'm a guest.
1:43:44I'm not a father of rules.
1:43:46Everybody applies.
1:46:12It is now a feasible technology, along with our other water supply centers.
1:46:27We can set a valuable role.
1:46:38It has that nice characteristic of most fine technologies that it's open-ended.
1:46:43It's further work which helps us travel a little further along and bring us further improvements.
1:46:49And the U.S. involvement in the installment goes back a very long way.
1:46:52Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson in 1791 sent a report to the legislation firms in Congress in order that the results of this work would be used on board all ships of the U.S. as a version of the source of water at Ferguson River.
1:47:11In 1952, the federal government established the Office of Saving Water, described in broad terms here, within the Department of Interior, with the specific objective of developing the technology for low-cost consultant water.
1:47:29And now, after 20 years, there has been great progress due to that program.
1:47:37There's still much to be done.
1:47:39Over this 20-year period, actually 19 years, OSW has invested something like $210 million in this program.
1:47:46And we estimate, although we don't have an accounting, that the industrial contribution to this technology is about the same.
1:47:58At the present time, the water program, the opposite side of the water program, is funded at $27 million a year.
1:48:06The office has a regular policy of transferring the technology as it's developed to industry.
1:48:13It does that as soon as it has demonstrated the technology of the technology in a pilot or a demonstration plan, and some of its activities are indicated here.
1:48:24They typically set up pilot and test facilities to demonstrate various technologies that are going to be described.
1:48:36Now, the total water supply available in the United States today is about one gallon for every dollar of GMT.
1:48:43That's an interesting way to think about it.
1:48:46Not necessarily as you do with the parallel 12 billion gallons per day.
1:48:51And we would draw about one quarter of that water for use, and we would turn most of it as waste water.
1:49:00This water, in fact, can be used many times, although it's not particularly advertised.
1:49:06If you think about it, the water flows down a river from a source to the sea.
1:49:11It's probably used many, many times in many different cities.
1:49:15About a third of the water that's withdrawn is actually not recovered, and it's consumed.
1:49:22That's what these figures over here are.
1:49:24And that's due to evaporation, primarily.
1:49:28It's interesting that irrigation is the biggest user of water.
1:49:33About half of the water that is withdrawn is used for it, and about 80% of the water that's consumed is being used in irrigation.
1:49:45Dissolving water is not likely to be cheap enough to be used for irrigation, unless very high value crops can be thrown with it, or unless there are some other circumstances which go along with it.
1:49:59In our cities and towns, each of us uses on the average about 160 gallons per person per day.
1:50:09Out of that, about a quarter of it is actually consumed.
1:50:14The rest of it is returned, as I say, as waste water.
1:50:18Dissalted water, in the context of personal usage,
1:50:22This is a place where the salt water is going to have its first and closest impact.
1:50:30The amount of dissolved solids, which includes all salts, is usually stated in parts per million, and TDS means total dissolved solids.
1:50:42The federal standards for drinking water is less than 500 parts per million total dissolved solids.
1:50:50Simple water, on the other hand, contains about 35,000
1:51:00Bars, provision, total dissolved solids.
1:51:03So there's a large gap here.
1:51:05And in between, the dissolving plants will be most favorable in terms of their economics, where there's a huge supply of energy.
1:51:14So we need to use energy, and we need a way of disposing of the brine, and we think both of these can be solved.
1:51:28As the price of dissolved water comes down, it will be more attractive in an increasing number of places, of course.
1:51:34But where we'll first see it used is probably on a large scale within Southern California.
1:51:41The way it affects urban areas, there's a large growing urban area on a coastal region that has a high water demand.
1:51:48One thing about Southern California...
1:51:52Seawater will be used in urban, arid coastal areas.
1:52:17As I mentioned earlier, there are many cities in the country where the only water available is brackish, and there are about 420 communities of that kind, and in those communities with total dissolved solids, their water is above 1,000 parts per million.
1:52:33It would be nice to dissolve their brackish water and give them pure water.
1:52:38A city that's actually done this is Plains, Texas.
1:52:42Another proposal along that same line is to build a desalting plant across the reservoir here in Clinton, Oklahoma.
1:52:51This plant would make available fresh water from salty water, which is very salty, 1700 parts per million.
1:53:00This is our water.
1:53:03As water passes through the city, it picks up waste products, of course, but these are removed by conventional sewage treatment.
1:53:09But it also picks up a good deal of dissolved salt, and this is not removed by the usual sewage treatment plant.
1:53:16So, if you wanted to reuse that water right away, you would have to use this technology of desalting.
1:53:24As I say, it's not an immediate problem, but it's something we must look to in the future.
1:53:28Some industries require very pure water, water which is as good or better than drinking water, and so this technology gives industry a technique for getting that water out of the water supply at a relatively low cost.
1:53:48Now, the state of the art in water removal as far as the salt removal from seawater is talked about here.
1:53:58The process that's used is simple distillation.
1:54:02All of our salts are removed by distillation in one step.
1:54:07This is the process which is used by 95% of the 700 desalting plants which are actually in operation throughout the world.
1:54:16Most of these plants are relatively small, but it's the large ones that are of interest because they yield at a substantial economic scale.
1:54:25The largest plant in the world is in Rosarito, Mexico.
1:54:30It produces 7.5 million gallons per day, and that would supply a city of about 50,000.
1:54:36The energy source for that plant is steam from a black-tinted plant, which is incorporated with the salting equipment.
1:54:45And it cost, the water cost of that plant was about 65, 75 cents per 1,000 gallons.
1:54:51On this curve, that plant falls at this point in 1970, cents versus time, and this is what happened to the cost, and we're projecting out into the future in terms of the economy of steel, and we can get something of that kind.
1:55:11QS Florida also obtains part of this water supply from a diesel plant.
1:55:18The cost of water there is 95 cents per thousand gallons.
1:55:21It's not quite as advanced a technology.
1:55:25The next step forward in the distillation technology will take place when a 2.8 million gallons per day test module is constructed in our county.
1:55:33The contract construction of that will be awarded next month.
1:55:38The test modules will be constructed there as a piece of a 15 million gallon per day unit.
1:55:44About four and a half million dollars of federal funds that go into that in the Orange County Water District will supply about 3.2 million new projects.
1:55:53And though it's an experimental plant, it will provide a very economical way of seeing what the complications of building a really large plant, 15 million gallons per day, would be.
1:56:05Orange County plans to use the output of that plant to recharge its groundwater from becoming a branch
1:56:15Now, distillation technology has developed to the stage where the next logical step would be to build a really large size prototype plant to demonstrate technology.
1:56:26And there's a study underway to determine the feasibility of building a plant at Diablo Canyon, California.
1:56:34And this plant will be coupled with a nuclear power station that's now under construction by PG&E.
1:56:41The study isn't complete, but offers some exciting prospects for advancing technology.
1:56:47The water cost as projected here, and the total capital cost, which would be between 35 and 40 million dollars, are not hard figures because the study has not yet been completed, and we, to talk about the feasibility of this, we really must await the cost of the study.
1:57:07Before you leave that, 130 cents is going to come.
1:57:11All that's required is an increase in the size of the plant and a lot of money.
1:57:18It's a combination.
1:57:20But it can be done.
1:57:23It can be done.
1:57:24The scientists believe that if we were to decide today that we want to get some 30 cents, could you do it?
1:57:35As a goal, I believe we can get there.
1:57:39Would it require a nuclear power plant, probably?
1:57:43I probably would.
1:57:44The 30 cents, it depends on the cost of energy.
1:57:48This would be a 200 million gallon day plant.
1:57:51It would use nuclear fuel.
1:57:53I suppose we might have the same question.
1:58:01What is the plan here?
1:58:04You know, we were talking about the breeder reactor for us, of course.
1:58:09In terms of the, I still want to reason we're going on that, is that not only is it a source of clean energy, but it's a source that's less expensive.
1:58:22That's right.
1:58:22That's looking forward about ten years.
1:58:24That's looking forward about ten years, but with the breeder reactor, and not the first reactor, but after the first few
1:58:34We would hope to have energy down, the cost of energy down to the point where you would reach these 30 cents per gallon.
1:58:44So if we look at the breeder reactor and put it into the insulting business, put it on a massive basis, we could get it done better?
1:58:52If you're going to look at the breeder reactor, you should look at it in this way.
1:58:57Suppose that you made a breakthrough on the fusion.
1:59:02That's what you were talking about the other day.
1:59:04Longer range.
1:59:05That's longer range.
1:59:06Is that less expensive?
1:59:09We have no way of knowing it.
1:59:11One of the goals of fusion...
1:59:20is to not only obtain the energy, but obtain it economically.
1:59:24One could picture a solution that would enable us to build fusion reactors and get the energy, but at a prohibitive cost.
1:59:32So we have the twin goals, and we don't know until we solve the problems whether we will, from fusion, get economically competitive.
1:59:40It's a real reactor, assuming that we go forward with it.
1:59:45You could visualize getting to 30 cents.
1:59:47That's right, and more than that, we could visualize these large energy centers that, in addition to desalting water, produce fertilizer and carry out the industrial manufacturing processes and become focal points for a whole region.
2:00:12Is ten years a realistic goal for the breeder?
2:00:15Yes, for the breeder.
2:00:17The breeder goal is 15 years at the present rate of funding, and 10 years or so if we make a decision to go ahead.
2:00:30Our understanding is that if we make a decision to bump it, you can't get below 10.
2:00:38Realistically, if I define the goal as the ultimate large 1 million kilowatt economically competitive reasonable reproduction time for the reactor, we couldn't get that unless we can do it.
2:01:28Yes sir, Mr. President.
2:01:30I have a question.
2:01:31Some year, five or six years ago, there was a plant under design, it was no longer in Dallas, it was in the Long Island area, where they were trying to combine incineration with the desalting process.
2:01:51Yes, has that ever been built successfully?
2:01:54I don't believe there's a plant, where they do...
2:01:57The water is all used in the plant.
2:02:02There's no water available for distribution.
2:02:07In other words, it was just a self-sustaining thing they were talking about.
2:02:14We're looking at some very interesting studies now from the solid waste disposal.
2:02:23operations at EPA where it indicates the solid waste of a city if it is incinerated that heat would provide.
2:03:00operations at EPA, where it indicates the solid waste of a city if it is incinerated, the heat would provide enough water to dissolve 20% of the city's water supply.
2:03:13That heat would come to us at the projected zero cost for that city because of the credits it would have for disposing of the garbage.
2:03:21so that it offers a very low cost opportunity for steam.
2:03:24There's some interesting synergistic effects that have been obtained by S.R.
2:03:28from many other ones.
2:03:28He knows that very carefully.
2:03:30Mr. President, there's another aspect of it, too, and that's how you account for it.
2:03:34If you have a multi-purpose plant, one that's producing energy, one that might be producing other byproducts, in addition to salting, it gets down to how much you charge against the salting operation and how much you charge against the energy, so...
2:03:49The day could come when you might have to charge more for the energy side in order to produce the necessary water.
2:03:56What's the old story?
2:03:57That's exactly right.
2:03:58So I think you have water for irrigation.
2:04:02It could be very cheap if you just charge the energy and vice versa.
2:04:08Right, John?
2:04:09You've all been through it.
2:04:11Well, it is.
2:04:11But this is what you have to think in terms of when you're thinking about these large, cumulative plants where you're at present
2:04:19Just throwing the heat out, you're developing tremendous capital cost and reduction of heat.
2:04:26For example, this plant down here on the step seat will have a fantastic cooling operation, which if you recapitalize that in terms of salt water, desalting water, you can come up with any figure you want to on the water.
2:04:45The next thing that I want to talk about is how to get brackish water to the drinkable state.
2:04:52And here you could use distillation, but because there's so much less salt in the water, there are more economical processes, and they involve semi-permeable membranes.
2:05:04There are two processes.
2:05:05One is known as electrodialysis, where the electric current forces salts through the membrane and out of the salty water, so you get fresh water.
2:05:16The other process is called reverse osmosis.
2:05:19And there...
2:05:21The saline water is under pressure, but only the fresh water passes through the membrane and the salt is left behind, so you can't get fresh water.
2:05:29In these cases, electric power is used as the energy storage rather than steam, which is the case of distillation.
2:05:37In both of, in Siesta Key, Florida, an electro-dialysis plant has been built which produces 1.2 million gallons per day.
2:05:46And it's used to treat brackish groundwater.
2:05:50And the cost is about 35 cents per 1,000 gallons.
2:05:53And you notice here that, of course, the cost of water in these processes, because we were removing much less salt, is less.
2:06:01Reverse oposis gives particular promise of considerable further development.
2:06:04I'll say more about it later.
2:06:07But it's interesting that commercial companies picked up this development and contributed to it in a fine way.
2:06:14Two examples of the kinds of membranes that are used in the process.
2:06:18I think they share a package there.
2:06:22This one is a rather standard looking tube, which is put together by General Dynamics.
2:06:29And the water flows from outside to inside.
2:06:32That's like that.
2:06:34Inside to outside here.
2:06:37Of course, the more membrane area you have, the better.
2:06:41And here we see...
2:06:45DuPont's spun fibers, each one of which is a tube, has a hole that runs all the way down it, and a full package of this has an acre of surface area, and John told me yesterday, we put the water, the salt water on the outside, and take the fresh water out to the inside of these fibers, and so this is the kind of technology which industry has been contributing here.
2:07:16The single largest plant of this kind is in Greenfield, Iowa, and it uses the recently developed hollow fiber technology of EMR, and the code cost of water is reported to be about 37 cents per gallon.
2:07:31In addition, there's going to be a number of spinoffs of these two kinds of technologies in other areas, the direct adventure moisture that we like.
2:07:44It's interesting that in this kind of process, distillation plants, or reverse osmosis plants, can be much smaller than distillation plants, and still be economical, and that's an important factor in some cases.
2:08:01The role of the federal government in all of this, I think we should offer our hats to the Office of Civil and Water and Materials, because they've been in charge of the program over the past 19 years, which as I mentioned before, the total expenditure has been about $210 million.
2:08:22They've had contracts with industry, universities, and other government agencies.
2:08:27A limited amount of other work, important, and quite closely related to this, is in the ABC, the National Science Foundation, and DOD.
2:08:37Well, we're just consulting the question.
2:08:39Is $27 million a total amount of all government effort in this field?
2:08:43Or does that not include the amount that you have at the U.C.
2:08:47National Library?
2:08:50The amount in the Department of Interior is $27 million.
2:08:54$27 million is the Interior budget, but the amount additional is quite small.
2:08:58It's just a few cycles.
2:09:00They don't cost much.
2:09:02They don't cost a lot.
2:09:03I think it's going to go to the way that's known as...
2:09:06I think his whole attitude is changing very rapidly because of the fact that, for example, Lake Mead has now got a ton of salt for acres of water in the Colorado River.
2:09:31The whole saline issue, as far as our relationship with Mexico now, is how company is priming here, and I think that we've had a lot of talks about it, and I think it's, as we understand that this new technology has got to really be a worldwide, have worldwide application.
2:09:50I think I could be of help with it when I could, too, because I think it's very important.
2:09:55It's,
2:09:56It's the only subject we had to discuss with the next committee.
2:10:02We've never done a good job with him on this.
2:10:07There's always been so much interest as far as he personally and some of the other western members of the Congress are concerned, and overridden this thought with him.
2:10:19The big problem this week is to solve out irrigated lands, to get rid of them.
2:10:24Basically, it's a new ballgame.
2:10:28I asked Pat O'Meara, who's sitting here, he's the acting director of OSW, where did all this technology come from, and he prepared these charts for me.
2:10:37As you can see, it came from a coalition of industries and universities in a very interesting way.
2:10:44You can read that chart as well as I can, I hope.
2:10:47But I think that if we try to single out the important contributions, they came from two universities, the University of Florida and UCLA, because that contributed to this reverse osmosis open-ended effort, and the contribution of DuPont and some other industrial firms to develop the kind of technology that we saw here.
2:11:11Well, what's the place of U.S. industry in the world market in all this?
2:11:14It's an interesting point, since the Secretary of State has just been released, and released is the place where most of the world market is at the present time.
2:11:26I think that it's very clear.
2:11:28that there is a great potential for an export industry, although it's not very large at the moment.
2:11:33And yet the U.S. seems to be falling somewhat behind in the sharing of this expanding market.
2:11:41The competition is France, England, and Japan.
2:11:45The Middle East, as I say, provides the principal market at the moment.
2:11:49U.S. industry prices are not competitive, apparently, because other countries are giving special assistance to their firms in steel.
2:11:57How much cooperation do we have scientifically?
2:12:02In the British, you know.
2:12:05My impression is that we are ahead of them in our technology.
2:12:09We, of course, have scientific contacts, meetings, and that sort of thing, but I think there's very little contact on the technology level.
2:12:17The reason they sell more is because they're costable.
2:12:20They're costable, and we think that it's a subsidized technology.
2:12:34Well, what are the frontiers and opportunities here?
2:12:39They're searching and developing as far as possible, and we're consulting and supplying the technology.
2:12:44However, I think that the state of it is not well appreciated by what we want to supply for fame, and I think we have to undertake a demonstration program, probably at the rest of the summer, to talk about it.
2:12:59We have this opportunity to build a 15-minute gallop per day site in California.
2:13:04The center of this invisible water district is an interesting and important one.
2:13:10Again, I think I should caution you that it has not been staffed to the degree that we would like to see it, so that we are confident of the costs and benefits.
2:13:18But it is a very interesting possibility.
2:13:22In addition, we think that research in desalting should be continued.
2:13:27There's a new horizon for distillation, and it's reverse osmosis.
2:13:30We should be able to continually improve the reverse osmosis process, and one of the most exciting and interesting possibilities is that that process may become good enough that we can use it for desalting seawater, and therefore it might take the place of distillation altogether, and this could be a really new breakthrough.
2:13:52I think it's interesting to note, Mr. President, that there hasn't been any point in this 19-year history where we can say there was a tremendous breakthrough, a steady, slow progression, and an effort by a large number of people working under the leadership of OSW.
2:14:08And I think it shows what dedicated people over a long period of time can do, even though the problem is a very, very difficult one.
2:14:21Mr. President, consulting is a viable technology with a very bright future for serving society as a vital part of our life supply right now.
2:14:36Let me ask you.
2:14:38Do you have a scientific standpoint in the...
2:15:39By coincidence, we just did a study of that with OSW.
2:15:46My office and OSW together produced a report.
2:15:53The point is, we have a five-year plan.
2:15:56Is that chart available fast?
2:16:00Which will...
2:16:02It will cause an expansion of the program of about 30% next year, and about a doubling by the year 19, a little later on, 1991, and taking off towards the turn of the century, and projecting out that by that time we will have a viable industry which will be doing its own research.
2:16:25So we see a build-up over the next 10 years in the government effort in the opposite side of the water, and then a decline after that.
2:16:35So this is a program we recommend, and your program is about taking into account the possibility of a free-to-react development.
2:16:44It looks at many different sources of energy in the free-to-react when it comes...
2:16:50I might make a comment on the role that nuclear power might play.
2:16:59There are a number of possibilities for using the presence of nuclear reactors in this.
2:17:08A reference was made to the interests of Mexico, and you know, as Secretary Rogers knows, we've had a
2:17:48be ready to build now, or at least the first such plant, although this is a tremendous investment.
2:17:55This would cost something like three quarters of a billion dollars.
2:17:59And then also there's the MEDIS study.
2:18:02They study, you know, that Secretary Howard Baker has, that Senator Howard Baker of Tennessee has such an interest in, and
2:18:14Ex-AEC Chairman.
2:18:15The idea there of building a presently available type of power plant that would furnish electricity, produce fertilizer and so forth, and dissolve seawater, perhaps one in Israel and one in the UAR, or perhaps one jointly.
2:18:37The idea here is to contribute to peace and stability in the region, and here they have in mind
2:18:44flaks that would produce about 200 million gallons of sea water per day in about 500,000 kilowatts.
2:18:54Again, the big roadblock here is the capital investment, but the feeling is that the water would be in this range, pretty close, some say less, some say more, 30 cents per 1,000 gallons.
2:19:15Can I ask you a question, by the way?
2:19:16Assume that the government made a maximum effort, could we expect to have a predominant position in the world in this field?
2:19:25Absolutely.
2:19:26We're losing our predominant position in so many fields.
2:19:32There, planes, and so forth.
2:19:35We have in some fields what we're losing in others.
2:19:37Is this one that we actually could gain predominance?
2:19:42Well, I think so.
2:19:43We're doing more, but we've got two universities, two major universities, University of Florida and UCLA University of Florida.
2:19:50We've got some of the classes gone.
2:19:52We've got the ASC.
2:19:54We're just looking ahead ten years and so forth.
2:19:57I don't know if we can create a reactor, but I know you've got a big thick book you're studying to go through to go along the next 20 years the way you did the last 20 years, and maybe 70 years from now when most people die and the first people find the answers, but that's fine.
2:20:12And probably that's the way it'll work out.
2:20:15But is there any... Could you take a look at this without the inhibitions of the financial cost and all that sort of thing?
2:20:25Talking to Steve Borg on the reactor thing, assuming that the plant will go forward in that area, and taking it in terms of...
2:21:01This might be an area where we could do it.
2:21:05There's no easy solution.
2:21:07There's not going to be any breakthrough in all of that.
2:21:10But it seems to me that this is supposed to be one of those areas where if it's a question of power, cost of power, etc., and efficiency, then by God, the United States of America ought to be first in the world.
2:21:23We ought to be first a hell of a lot faster.
2:21:28So that's it.
2:21:29Put it another way.
2:21:30You answered your own question.
2:21:32I think that if we had the resources to be first in the world, I think this world could be expanded very considerably.
2:21:39We could make it a major thing.
2:21:40It could be happening.
2:21:42Could you use the mic?
2:21:44Mr. President, I think we have a fairly adequate level of research effort underway.
2:21:50We have developed a lot of technology that needs to be applied.
2:21:54So you need money for applying to come out, which of course is the big cost.
2:21:58In the applications that we're enforcing in the five-year plan, we propose to do this on a 50-50 basis, cost-sharing, which is where our location would be.
2:22:06We could accelerate that very rapidly, at least assume that to be a federal responsibility, and apply this to demonstrate we could do it.
2:22:13This was the thing to accelerate the program, to apply the technology we do have.
2:22:18A second way I think we could accelerate our technology is that we rely on industry, and we rely on experience.
2:22:24The major markets today are the foreign markets.
2:22:27It's obvious that the foreign countries are giving incentives to their dissolving people.
2:22:31We have no incentives for ours.
2:22:33If we had a small incentive for U.S. industry, we could get a lot on the market.
2:22:37We would gain the experience that we would need.
2:22:39We have the world leadership in technology.
2:22:41We're hurt simply by our proximity to the markets and the labor rates that U.S. industry must pay.
2:22:46Isn't it fair to say that we need to build a large demonstration plant in the 50 to 100 million gallons?
2:22:52Yes, we want to move immediately as quickly as we can.
2:22:54Why do you think that's the problem?
2:22:57We have to study under way, under all the...
2:22:59I want to do it.
2:22:59Within one year, we can get construction.
2:23:04I think where the big money could be put into this program now would be beneficial in terms of really big development would be in the establishment of new prototype plants.
2:23:28to move from the demonstration type to the real prototype operation.
2:23:34I think that's the next big step.
2:23:36Would you agree?
2:23:37Yes, that's true.
2:23:39Yes, Mr. President.
2:23:40Well, this came out, they'll tell them what you saw out there.
2:23:45Well, when you fly up on the east side of the Jordan River, which is a small, wide river, it's not so big.
2:23:57You can see the canal that the United States connects.
2:24:00Well, the Jordan Canal comes down from the Sea of Galilee area.
2:24:07And it's a small canal on the top of the land.
2:24:11You can see it all the way down there.
2:24:15Halfway down it's been blown up.
2:24:16So it's not operative.
2:24:19Northern Square is operative.
2:24:21It looks like the Imperial Valley.
2:24:24Soft of that, it looks like a barren desert.
2:24:28The land is deteriorating fast.
2:24:31And you can see that the potential in that area is just exactly the same potential that exists in California.
2:24:37All you need is water.
2:24:38What I was wondering about this, we South Brazilians and I sat here and listened to the discussion about spotting.
2:24:47We were behind in 1950 and 1957.
2:24:50We hadn't done really very much.
2:24:52And it wasn't until we were challenged by the Russians dramatically that we all got off our duffs and did something and we finally surpassed them and got to the moon first and so forth.
2:25:02But it took that kind of challenge before we really...
2:25:05watch all our energies and our resources and so forth.
2:25:08And I wonder if maybe we're not doing the same thing here, if we are being left behind, all of a sudden we'll find a Japanese or somebody else.
2:25:17As a matter of fact, the Reich is our building, a large demonstration plant, a nuclear plant that is operating interim on oil.
2:25:27Once that happens, and everybody says, oh my God, the Reich...
2:25:32We're now in a position where we couldn't develop a prototype plan.
2:26:33You know, we can make the same arguments about, I guess, I mean, why should we subsidize something that we can't make it go on?
2:26:39It's a great parent.
2:26:40The world has changed.
2:26:49The world has changed a great deal.
2:26:51I mean, Sputnik was something that had to be a government operation.
2:26:55We all know that.
2:26:56But looking at this, which is not government, you realize that it isn't just the communists.
2:27:02We've got the British, the French, everybody else, right?
2:27:05They're all those, the Japanese, I mean, they've got that problem about waiting until things become viable for private enterprise.
2:27:12They don't, is this correct?
2:27:14And what we really have to look at here, in terms of your application, we have to look at here, let's look at that 50-50 part.
2:27:22Let's look at this land.
2:27:23And if the problem is, because of the costs, the animals and so forth, the private industries are ready, and they're saying, well, wait a minute, let's get it down a little cheaper, then maybe we'll do it.
2:27:36If we wait that long, we're going to be way behind if there's any questions, because there are other countries that aren't waiting.
2:27:45Now, we can't get behind in this area, and also there's another reason.
2:27:49It's enormously important looking at the cost thing.
2:27:53for us to realize the benefits that can flow.
2:27:56And we're all just sobering to know that there's going to be a huge break-in.
2:28:02But it's perhaps even more reassuring to know they can be done over a period of time.
2:28:08Now, what the United States is good at, certainly, is application.
2:28:12Some think we are too good at the basic research, and I think we should both.
2:28:17But we are awfully good at application.
2:28:18We're the best in the world, aren't we?
2:28:20And it seems to me that in this area, where application is involved, we ought to get home.
2:28:26We ought to get together.
2:28:28We ought to provide.
2:28:29It has to be 90-10.
2:28:31Let's do it.
2:28:32My God, we have 90-10 to build.
2:28:33But I think what we would like to have, and I think we can have this taken up with Mr. Oswald again, let's try to have it set up with the highest level of integrity
2:28:50I think various people have to participate.
2:28:53Actually, the Department of the Interior, like ADC, the scientists and people like ADC.
2:29:01Let's take a re-look at this in terms of what we could do with a major effort, with a major effort in this field.
2:29:07And have in mind, too, again, what is being done in other parts of the world.
2:29:13But it's not just for the purpose of being competitive with them, but in terms of our own needs, and in terms of some of the enormous consequences of having some practical plans that we could use in this country.
2:29:20Texas could use one of them, or Southern California, and a few other places.
2:29:22But abroad, the impact is inexplicably enormous.
2:29:42This is a very fine forest affairs tool.
2:29:46We all talked about it.
2:29:49I just wanted to add a thought that, quite apart from the indirect commercial and foreign policy matters, that it has, it seems to me, all kinds of implications in terms of
2:30:04a better future for tons of millions of people.
2:30:07It's an exciting prospect when you think in terms of population growth and the crowding of the world and so on.
2:30:14The crowding is a crowding partly because of the denial to population of vast areas that are presently not arable or productive.
2:30:25And this is a kind of, it really does have some of the kinds of overtones, I think, of
2:30:31The only hope, the only hope is sausage.
2:30:33There is no way, there is no way in the end Pakistan are ever going to make it.
2:30:39I mean, they can grow more wheat, which they've done, and they can cut their population, which they've done, but it's terribly overpopulated, and it's dry, and so forth and so on.
2:30:48That's just a sleet out of the business.
2:30:49Is there any people there to speak of anyway?
2:30:52And so it would compare to what there are there.
2:30:54But there in South Asia, there's 700 million people living in the most godforsaken place in the world.
2:31:00It's a horrible place.
2:31:01I don't know why they ever went down there.
2:31:04I can't understand why they would reduce it.
2:31:07But coming to this one, I think there's another thing we want to do in this setting.
2:31:14When it comes to the reactor thing, and the whole thing, let's have a mind for the fact that there are some minuses that people fear.
2:31:24You know, the planet might explode, maybe we shouldn't do this, and of course there's the competition of the other sources of energy.
2:31:30But it seems to me that if we can move on this, and I'd like to do this on a very fast basis, if we can move on this field,
2:31:39I would like to tie that into this.
2:31:42In other words, if we look forward to the greater reactor, I mean, let's look at it as one of the... After all, isn't that one of the major things it might accomplish?
2:31:51Yes, yes.
2:31:52It is a source of cheap energy.
2:31:53Energy is the whole thing.
2:31:55You just...
2:31:56When I was in Green Island in the Pacific, we used to say that we were very careful with water, and that's why nobody ever took a bath.
2:32:05All the kids became hippies after it was our kids.
2:32:07But anyway, it was a gallon of water and a gallon of gas.
2:32:12That's about what it used to cost.
2:32:14That was 20 years ago.
2:32:16But at this point, the breeder-reactor thing, the breeder-reactor, a new program in this thing, a program that goes, and I think you put your finger on it, you have to, it's application, it's more scientists.
2:32:28Apparently we've got to find out what'll work.
2:32:32But we shouldn't just wait until one of the companies wants to take a risk on this thing and go, I'll do it.
2:32:40That 50-50 thing isn't going to work.
2:32:42You disagree, John?
2:32:43No, sir.
2:32:44I agree.
2:32:44Your money's not going to work.
2:32:46I agree.
2:32:46But don't you think we have to move this field?
2:32:49No question about it.
2:32:50And we're long overdue.
2:32:52I've got the precise figures, but I think it'll cost for a thousand.
2:32:58You can tell me.
2:33:00I believe many cities can bear this kind of a cost.
2:33:04If they have to, I think industry can get to that.
2:33:08It's probably 30 cents.
2:33:09Agriculture, for example.
2:33:11To really be meaningful has got to be about 15 cents, if I remember the figures.
2:33:17Now, this, of course, in the present day is costing.
2:33:22In the future, it may be less or more.
2:33:24But I don't know of anything at all today that says there's much hope, there's much promise, not only around the world, but in the United States, right?
2:33:30Yeah, I think it might be right to remake this thing.
2:33:33Now, the time when we're spending billions of dollars, literally, for hundreds of millions of things to build a bank,
2:33:39...to provide water and storable water.
2:33:42The truth of the matter is that if we could utilize existing waters, inland, and if we had these modernizations, the point where the coastal cities did not have to rely on the reservoirs, where they had an effect to preempt the waters of the rivers of this country.
2:33:58The coastal cities have.
2:33:59Well, if we can ever get desalination effective, and it's Peter and Ed just said to desalinate the ocean waters, and it is the inland British waters, we can, in effect, utilize and appropriate for the inland cities, all of the waters in the rivers, and let the coastal cities rely on desalinated ocean waters.
2:34:17It can change this whole nation.
2:34:19You mean like the inland cities?
2:34:21No, no question.
2:34:22You mean like the inland part of the United States?
2:34:25You know, the aspect of it is that in the impoundments today, you're just increasing the salient content of every major impoundment in the West through evaporation.
2:34:37And if you're really going to distribute the population in this country, and I have a tremendous...
2:34:44More than we've got now in the coastal zones, you're going to have to do it.
2:34:48There isn't any alternative.
2:34:50The impoundments today have needed a ton of salt for acres, but today there will be some point when that either has to be desalinated or drained.
2:35:00They're mining their water.
2:35:16And it's a question of time until they're through.
2:35:18And this is why I suffer from all of the irrigated lands in Texas.
2:35:21I have an enormous impact on the whole economy of that country.
2:35:26But that country is not just foreign, it's significant.
2:35:28It's transportation, it's ports, it's facilities, it's everything.
2:35:31Well, we have a unique opportunity for the country right now.
2:35:38We need to develop this technology right now.
2:35:46They have applied for a $650,000 loan, $650,000 grant.
2:35:50With that money, they would be able to move immediately with the construction of a three-minute gallon per day desolating plant to make that water available for Clinton in the heart of a drought area.
2:36:05Mr. President, if we could move on that now, we could have that plant ready for dedication before the next election.
2:36:13Laughter
2:36:20There is a very specific example of yours.
2:36:25Usually what we're doing is something like this.
2:36:31We're creating areas for saving people.
2:36:38When they're leaders, there's not much left.
2:36:40Here's the chance.
2:36:42We'll move in.
2:36:43Sorry, we're getting...
2:36:44I've got a point.
2:36:45We'll get some new money for this.
2:36:48Bob, this is fine.
2:36:50We appreciate it.
2:36:51We'd like to have five minutes for the...
2:36:53I'm not going to be with him on the internet.
2:36:57It's not a great situation.
2:36:59I'm going to be with him.
2:37:01I'm going to buy it over and sell it over.
2:37:03Mr. President, President of the United States of America.
2:37:30Then, for some reason, various German officials began talking about the money flowing in and the instability, and one thing or another, they just kept on and kept on, and last week they had four out of five German institutes talk about the property necessary to float the dollar.
2:37:48Well, what happened immediately, the speculative money started to be moved in enormous amounts, a billion dollars in 50 minutes.
2:37:57in Germany at one point.
2:38:00So they closed their exchanges and the rest of it, you know, many sources.
2:38:08But that of what's occurred is simply this.
2:38:10The Germans are now floating.
2:38:13They did not change the basis of parity, but they're floating in violation of the IMF rules, which
2:38:23They'll get an exception for it, I'm sure.
2:38:28The Dutch are doing the same.
2:38:29The Swiss actually revalued up 7%.
2:38:31The Austrians revalued 5.05%.
2:38:33Frankly, the Italians did nothing.
2:38:35The Belgians are using a two-tier system and a basic system of controls.
2:38:40We don't know whether that's going to work or not.
2:38:43It didn't work very well for them, but it's primarily to keep their capital from flowing out of the country.
2:38:48Now, whether or not they can reverse it and use the system of controls...
2:38:52To keep money from flowing in, we don't know.
2:38:55But yesterday, after all the weekend activities, not a great deal of money moved.
2:39:01We thought some of the money would move out of Switzerland.
2:39:05They accumulated quite a bit.
2:39:07The German mark went up about 4% and fluctuated substantially in the Dutch Gilder.
2:39:25It's a very strong currency, went up less than 1% over the 30, so I don't think there's anything for us to do, very frankly, but sit and watch.
2:39:37There's tremendous dissension within the countries in Europe, and I suppose if this goes on for any appreciable time, that those feelings will intensify, but...
2:39:52We tried not to issue any statements, as you well know, that would indicate that it's all of their problem.
2:39:58We tried not to indicate that we're happy about it, simply because we think that it is irritating them all the more.
2:40:06And they can hurt us, and they are hurting us.
2:40:08And this is something that's quite sensitive, and I hope it won't be discussed out of the room, but we only have about 14 minutes.
2:40:2114.3 billion dollars in foreign assets and euros, only 10.9 billion in gold.
2:40:26And these little countries like Switzerland and Belgium and Holland, they just always want gold.
2:40:33And yesterday we had to...
2:40:35We paid the French 280 million dollars in gold, but this was a long-standing commitment.
2:40:41We have no complaints about it.
2:40:44The French have not been critical or uncooperative.
2:40:48This has nothing to do with this recent trouble, but we pay them because they have to make payments to the International Monetary Fund.
2:40:59The Swiss now have 950 million dollars in grosser bonds.
2:41:02We renegotiated those on yesterday.
2:41:05They took in their old ones, took their lost, and we gave them new ones.
2:41:10But in addition to that, they've got a billion dollars uncovered that we got word yesterday.
2:41:13They want a hundred million dollars.
2:41:19The value is always that they want gold.
2:41:22Yesterday we paid them a hundred million dollars, 85 million in gold, and 15 million in special drawing rights in the house.
2:41:31The Dutch have about 500 million.
2:41:35So you take the Dutch and the Balians and the Swiss, every time they get hold of a dollar, they will convert it into gold.
2:41:45So we're moving just as slowly as we can, and we've got a man over there, and we're saying to him, now y'all just don't be...
2:41:55You may not like what you get, in fact.
2:41:58It's tight, everything's fine.
2:41:59We're going to show you the fact that the dollar's not as weak as you think it is.
2:42:04That's about the net of it.
2:42:05I don't anticipate that there's going to be any tremendous reaction.
2:42:09There's a great deal, as a matter of fact, there's a great deal of...
2:42:14Exciting on the part of many people in this country who think that many of the world currencies should be revalued.
2:42:22They don't think, which in effect is us devaluing.
2:42:25And although we're getting some bad headlines, Pete and I talked about it yesterday afternoon about whether or not we ought to try to say much about it.
2:42:35I would frankly not want to do it at the moment simply because
2:42:40Let's wait a few days to see.
2:42:41It's not having that much of an impact, to my judgment, on the border.
2:42:45And we don't have a lot we can worry about, even though they've re-voted, and SWIFT has determined it's floating, and Harvey is slighted.
2:42:55They're doing it because the devaluation in effect is the reverse devaluation of the dollar.
2:43:01So I think we don't gain a lot by trying to explain it.
2:43:05It's almost impossible to explain to every citizen in any way they care.
2:43:09And my judge, he's just not that interested.
2:43:11He thinks that's something for Bill Rogers and everybody else to worry about.
2:43:14He's not concerned it's not going to affect him.
2:43:18Now, most of the activation comments want foreign currencies to float.
2:43:24Most government economists don't.
2:43:26They want to fix Perry.
2:43:28And I would advise you to find five of them.
2:43:30There's three of them.
2:43:31That's about it.
2:43:32You may want to disagree with the rest.
2:43:38And I say this in all candor and in all honesty, there's a tremendous difference.
2:43:46That ought to be structured, Bill.
2:43:48The thing to do is to keep quiet and let itself down.
2:43:52They get the problem they have now, and they get some revaluation.
2:43:57I would sit tight for the moment.
2:43:59We're from strength now.
2:44:01We're trying not to ruffle anybody.
2:44:03I don't think we're hurting one man.
2:44:05And I don't think we're going to be hurt, very frankly.
2:44:08But I don't think we ought to be out beating our breast, or talking about it, or saying a whole lot of things.
2:44:18We're apologizing.
2:44:19That's right, we're apologizing.
2:44:22That's about it.
2:44:23It's silly, but it's true, though.
2:44:26Det er svært svært svært svært svært svært
2:44:38Yes, it has made it difficult, and unless this bill settles down, and this is where we may have set in, the United States may have to supply sandership here in two or three weeks, where frankly the key to that is to blow it apart, because if it goes into the summer, as bad as it is right now, it's going to affect the formation of the Utes.
2:45:00I'm ready to say that if it doesn't settle well,
2:45:04It's completed by June or July.
2:45:06It's probably a dead issue.
2:45:08And this could make it quite impossible.
2:45:11That's all the last time.
2:45:12They've been discussed and settled down.
2:45:15There's been a lot of waste made here because of this.
2:45:18A lot of resentment against the Germans.
2:45:21Yeah, no question about that.
2:45:23Our incentives are very good, whether it's accurate or not, it's relevant.
2:45:34It's like the house and the lawn.
2:45:36It's like the house and all the other currencies, like the lawn.
2:45:44And when the lawn grows up, you mow the lawn, you don't cut down the house.
2:47:07Okay, Dave.
2:47:07How's that look?

Nixon, Agnew & Cabinet officers on Middle East diplomacy

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