Conversation 088-003

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I think both sides, management and labor both,

They've done quite a job, made quite a contribution, because this has been a costly operation for Polt's side.

Polt's side brings people in from all over the country, various parts of the country, to send in on these meetings, sometimes twice a week, generally at least once a week.

And it has brought the top of labor and the labor at the local union level closer together, especially with the management groups.

We've been able to analyze some of the problems that exist that we had no way of learning about them before.

I think the whole, and again I can say we've never been able to get consensus of our people, but

I think that the whole thing that has happened here since you put the construction industry under freeze first, and no one lost any or shed any tears about the construction industry at that time.

But they've all been taking a good look at the construction industry since then.

But I think you did quite a job in giving us the school, in sending us the school, because many of us have been in this industry all our lives.

I've been here for 41 years myself, and I have, this last year, I've learned a great deal about collecting parking, that even though for many years of experience that I've had, I didn't realize there was such a variation in collecting parking in the construction industry around the country as it really exists.

And I think that Trump, on the experience that we've had over this year, whether we like it or not, I think it has done something for the industry, and certainly will make a substantial contribution to the overall economy.

But what is trying to be done?

Because I honestly, and this is my personal opinion, I think we needed something done to get us on the right track.

I think the craft boards, not only what they did at the present time, I can see them continuing to bring the whole of the industry closer together.

I know that you've had a view for the international and national representatives in various organizations.

You've had to carry out the policies at local levels.

What would you say is the presence of my...

Well, I wouldn't know how to put my finger on the answer to that question, but why did he accept it?

But could it be partly because they had a role that their organization hadn't predisposed?

Well, I think one of the important things is that you left the construction industry to construction people.

That is one of the keys to the whole, or answer to the whole problem, is that you left the construction industry to construction people.

And those that you did, like Dr. Benloff and someone who was well versed in the construction industry,

He had the great knowledge of it, he's worked with most of us for many, many years, and he knew our problems as well as the non-active problems, and I think that had a great deal to do with it.

But I do say that I think it was accepted much more readily than we had any anticipation of it.

It's close to that a lot of it was attributed to the faculty.

The management people, of course, had strong opinions, as well as the leadership positions, and both saw that their interests would be served.

We said a little bit about the table that he covered at the first meeting, because it got leveled off.

Right.

The usual way those things sort out is that one side thinks that this is the other side's fault.

And, you know, it's the best to apologize.

But then, finally, in this instance, without either side giving the principle, they finally said, well, let's sit down and see what we think.

Work out together.

Is that about what happened?

And also your government people played a good role in this.

The reason I ask is that we have similar problems in a number of other areas.

Frank is trying to find a formula.

I held this formula up to Frank to wait for the price to change.

I said I don't care to wait for the price to change.

The problems we have in the whole act, what he didn't mention is that very few people who knew this industry thought this thing would end together.

In fact, George told you to say to me, he said to me at the very beginning, he said, I don't think so.

He did say, I don't think so.

I said, George, it's an optimist.

I said, what's the question?

On the other hand, George, though, did say that it's going to be hard to keep it together.

And then Jim, of course, went off his heart and pieced it together and so forth.

And there were times, I guess, when it was torn apart.

And so I'm trying to see what's the glue here, right?

We can learn, not just to take what happens here and apply it, say, to automobiles.

Well, we don't have any coming up.

Thank God we're still here.

There are other questions.

The point is, it seems to me, you have an unusual combination.

You have labor leaders who are hard fighters, who are responsible.

Management leaders who are hard fighters, but also apparently responsible.

And the government people, not citing either.

One of the things I did in my coaching was to gather his fantasy.

Very effective in the process is the fact that the public people, John Quinn and Stuart Rothman and Mark Barker, all had exceptionally good, instructive backgrounds.

for the labor people and the management people both not taking a decision of 100% yes or 100% no.

And we will argue our cases whether it be from a management point of view or from a labor point of view.

And it's quite a thing to see sometimes

The public members will split, I would say, two sides, labor, two sides of management.

Other times, they'll side with management listening to the argument.

In other words, it's the merits of the argument that is the persuasive, that doesn't bring about the end result.

Not a labor position, not a management position, but it is consistently followed.

And that's a part of our supposedly...

Well, maybe in pursuit of that discussion, take a look at it from the management side for a moment, and ask Bob Higgins to tell us how it looks from here.

Thank you, Mr. President.

We obviously are pleased that what's happening in the state of New York City is much more confident that it would work.

We had some experience along the way, but...

Most of all, we want to thank you for making it possible.

Without the executive order, of course, we couldn't have done it.

I personally, a year ago, was surprised as complicated as this industry was, that you knew too much about it.

We talked for some 25 minutes about our industry.

We didn't think you knew all that much about it, but we're very pleased.

I think the significant thing is what Jack was touching on, too.

The industry is going to be different.

We need to go on with this, of course, and we have an interest in what's going to do it.

The industry is going to be different in that the people are going to know a whole lot more about what's going on around them.

They know a whole lot more about it.

I think we've got a demand to have that available to them in the future, so it's made a significant change.

We just have to go on from here, but I see the future looking very well today.

But again, as for management, we certainly want to help you for this, for making it possible to get this in line.

You agree with the plan?

Yes.

That the relations will be better.

The market structure.

There's no question about that.

People learn from this.

You didn't know all about it before you went in.

I heard that.

That's why you tell your board of directors.

You agree with that.

That's your position too.

Both sides.

He gets involved with his own segment of the industry.

That's why the industry is so complicated.

I can recall George Shultz, who changed his title just before he left over there, saying something along the lines of he was first.

and this process here of getting everybody to be aware about the others.

Thank you for watching!

I still see the numbers up there.

We've got to get those two lines in the first direction.

They're coming together, but they're still in gap.

That's the part about this that we're going to do by working here, is that we may spit over it rather rapidly.

This whole thing is done by the parties themselves, not by them.

There's no expense, there's very little tax figure in this whole thing.

And it costs them something to do it.

And so this is a particular feature that seems to me to strike me, that this is something that they think is good enough to support as they have been by operating it themselves, that each one wants it better than itself.

Well, on the plus side, to the extent we continue to be successful in order to create inflation,

This is really going to be the best that we could possibly have, just like the wage increase.

If you get that rate down, because it's the real wages that really count.

In other words, I know the reason why the polls, these are all the polls that have been solved many times, had to go out and ask for a wage increase.

It's the reason you had to go.

You say, well look, the cost of living is going down 5-6% a year.

You start there.

And then you add on to that, and of course you start adding to that, and then you have a good shelf, and then you find that cost of living, and we're able to get close to 80% because you have to preach.

And in terms of real wages, that's a lot better than just having another wage increase on top of an already high-escalating price increase.

So all of you have had a very interesting time in this conference, and I think we can all have an interest in our success, and we are can be successful in the present.

of a continuing rise of between, for example, between 6 and 7%, which would have been a proper assumption a year ago.

Now, we're going to try to get that down.

Every percentage point we can take off of 6 is really a percentage point increase in the real wages.

I'm not suggesting that that's something to do with marketing next time, but I guess that's...

But I thought you could tell your membership that we're successful on our side of the area, which is helping George.

Well, one of those that's helping from a little different direction than that is George Shultz and his productivity commission, and I thought it might be a good idea to practice and call upon George to say a little bit about productivity and particularly relate the objectives of the commission to it.

Right.

This makes sense, beginning with Mr. President.

This meeting is, at first, very satisfactory to me.

As I do remember, when I started as Secretary of Labor, I dressed up as John to figure out what about this industry and what could be done about it.

This commission was created in 1969 as the initial effort to give some structure to the discussion, focusing on productivity and associated problems.

He then sort of broadened that notion by creating the National Commission on Productivity about a year after that.

And it has a common bond of membership, not only in the government side, but the labor and management and public side.

And then, of course, the Stabilization Commission came into place about a year ago.

And that, again, has a common bond of membership with this

We have a small working group in the productivity commission that overlaps heavily, actually three of the four members of that small working group sitting here at the table.

to focus on problems of productivity and construction for schools and so on, to examine the whole system of vocational education, which I know the Commission General has been

and how that may play a part in the development of manpower supply in the industry, and then also a subject that we have been looking at for some time, the subject of seasonality in the industry, and the things that government and others may do to improve that.

I would suppose that some of the biggest increases in productivity in this industry, though, must be

Result from the sorts of things that John talks about, namely when strikes are less, the disruption that goes with those strikes is less, whether they be contract strikes or jurisdictional strikes or what have you.

We should have a greater sense of facility in the industry.

Productivity will rise.

So I think the productivity commission has been tying hands with this commission, encouraging work on productivity in this industry.

And my impression from talking...

is that the discussions have been very profitable and worthwhile, and I'm looking forward to really doing something.

One of the things that I know about the travel, and my own statement here, is that it's very easy to criticize.

It's very difficult to be instructive.

And the construction industry has been criticized from the agency and kicked around.

I've kicked it a few times myself.

But at the same time, I think we've tried to be constructive along with the industry.

And at this point, with the payout a little bit from all these actors being more visible,

It seems to me that it's very appropriate to give some people a little bit of a clap on the back.

And I know it's a nice thing to do.

A cast like John, many people will look at that and say, oh, well...

Sure, you've got that a little bit.

Why aren't they half what they are?

Why aren't they a third what they are?

Why aren't you thinking there was no achievement?

There's something that's accomplished here that's quite worthwhile.

The problems aren't all solved, but a lot of credit is due to the people who have worked on all this.

I want to tip my hat off to you.

Well, as George says, we have a small subsidy that is kind of a feeder to the construction industry collective bargaining commission, and to the productivity commission, that focuses on construction alone in these two respective areas, and is covering a wide range of things, among those that you mentioned, seasonality, of course, and also sustains this vocational education that you spoke of strongly in your messages.

in March of 1970, that we've got a V-bump for this, and we've got a skilled component of manpower adequate for the industry's growth that we manage to constantly anticipate.

So that is another thing that seems to be showing great promise at the present time.

Maybe we ought to end these brief remarks by having somebody comment about the industry itself for the current season.

Carl Carl, how much would you like to comment?

Mr. President, I think the prospects are very good as far as the ability of our industry to do the things that are required.

We have some concerns about our market, particularly in relation to the training of new people and bringing people from the minority groups into the industry.

This is most difficult when the workload is down within the industry.

In other words, we need work and we need to be expanding the workforce in order to assimilate these people.

I think the thing that everyone has said about the group in the past several years, and it's been, I would concur, incompletely.

However, I think that there are some things that we should continue to institutionalize under the leases, so to speak, of the current situation.

It's much easier to create change when you're living within a problem period like we have now, preparatory to the removal of all controls and all industries.

In other words, we should see to it that in this next period that we really

...substantivly structure these cracked boards, for instance, you know, to kill them, you know, moxie, that today that they're working, you know, kind of under, you know, a fix.

If during this period we can make them stronger and institutionalize our industry to a better advantage, then we will have a much better chance, you know, really to have a significantly different structure when all the controls go off.

Er, John, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er.

You feel better than you did a year ago?

Oh, yes.

There's been distinct progress.

On the other hand, I've been delighted to hear people indicate that we have not arrived at the millennium.

I'm delighted to hear you mention 5.5, because I think there is enough in mind here, and we've got...

We recognize the great progress that has gotten to be followed by them, and certainly the success that has been achieved to date, in terms of stability and in terms of reduced rate of increase, have contributed to our success in housing in China's testing.

Well, say amen to that.

I'd like to all have to add this, Mr. President.

You spoke of blue a few minutes ago, and we've enjoyed a blue as it's been enforced in what's been a triumphant year.

In 1971, as you know, they've broken all the records for production in this.

Also, the promise of good housing to more families in this country than ever before.

I want to tell you again that your personal dedication with the problems and the news that we've had from back in the terrible times of 1969 and the commitment that you made in 1970, and your continuing personal involvement and demonstration, which I think is something that you're...

...understanding your knowledge of not only the problems, but your actions followed, your confrontations with your influences that have been brought to bear and stabilizing the later relation of our product between actions you took in phase one and phase two, and the continuing focus on inflation...

It's a tough priority crowd.

The holding of the cost of money for American families being poor.

That's a curriculum of courage that's coming.

You're proven wiser and wiser by what's going on in the money market.

All of these have been, of course, production.

In 1972, we're grateful to them.

I hope it's better.

I guarantee.

Or maybe, as a quick plan of departure, as you might like to, we've talked primarily about construction here, you might like to broaden the perspective with a few comments of your own.

Well, I think you've all covered it awfully well.

I think it's a great thing.

I'm over and out.

In terms of cross-trips and so forth.

Yes.

We all know, of course, that we strive for perfection, but we never achieve it.

Thank God we don't.

It would be a very dull world.

We've been enjoying it for a while, but never the latter.

In this particular instance, this industry is complex, and it's so...

I have a number of people that I would refuse to represent, just like in a negotiating contract.

Very complex.

It varies city by city, state by state.

It depends on the building code.

It depends on so many different things.

I'm aware that all of you are.

One of the reasons is that your problem seems to be greater.

It's one of those things where you can make a decision on a high and just pass it down.

A lot of people got a clock, and it's very independent-minded people, strong people, I think, on the labor side.

At the same time, they can be set on the management side.

This is Bill.

There are some of these A-builders that we know.

I mean, I don't usually think of the B-builders.

Thank God we did.

When we look at building in America today, it's still an area where on the management side you've got thousands and thousands of basically what we call small business men.

Maybe there are only a million of them, or two million, or three million, or five million, or ten million, or fifty million of them.

So those are small businesses that are present.

And this is good.

It means, as a matter of fact, that this is an interesting thing.

The trio of historical transparency.

It's a great problem of the industrial revolution.

The 19th century in Britain, for instance, at first, in the late 18th,

The great problem was that there came these great concentrations of power and less and less opportunity for individuals to

It would be a lot easier if we just had three or four great big companies building houses across the United States.

It would be a lot easier, but we wouldn't want it.

The competition is very useful, and also it allows more people to get in on the act, more people to be members of the rest.

And of course, the same, that's why we do have, fortunately, we've got to work out how to help.

I know that, for example, the Los Angeles area, where I work, there's others, and I do know that there's other things.

Now, when it comes to the achievements and all the great things, they were a remarkable achievement.

I, knowing the problems in the industry at first, had to be somewhat pessimistic, because those were very clear.

I would say, well, this is a long shot, and we've got to take it.

So we took the long shot, and we were pretty close to the mark.

We were not true.

You all know that.

If you talk about how many houses we built last year, we have a thousand more to be done.

We have an awful lot more to be done to deal with construction generally.

If you look at it straight, it's probably 100 years built in the next five years.

How it's going to be done, we don't know all the years.

But certainly, there's an enormous amount of change.

We're all going to follow people who will buy it, buy this growth factor.

That's why all your healthiness, regardless of whether it's sick or if it comes to me,

So you're all playing a role in a much bigger project assembly.

You're all doing your own business, whatever the case might be.

So I'm particularly grateful for the work that you've done.

And I...

I thank you for it, Mr. Tucker.

But also, congratulations, because this is the toughest kind of problem in some people's lives.

It's really the toughest kind of problem.

And, uh, I, uh, no, it's not very small-age film.

Sure, I was talking to somebody, and frankly, I get a lot of hate from all sides.

I think I don't approve.

There are reasons, special reasons why we had to have these three years because we were behind, which is true.

Now I know our guys are going to catch up, and it's catching up, and that should be a little bit further because you're catching up at a time and a level of inflation.

It's not so bad.

You don't know how high it's going to be.

You're not going to get behind the game.

But, be that as it may, business manager, business manager, business manager, and other fields of construction primarily would come in.

They would run the construction industry.

You remember, George, they're in whack, pounding the table.

If they kept hitting the table, they'd say, you've got to do something about construction, what is it?

But the interesting thing is, of course, that Carver's has been made in a very instructive way, that those who raise the problem, a great number of them correct, but you see it's still 90%, or they want 9 or 16, which is better.

It's moving in this way rather than in this way.

So you've got to see it.

So we still have nothing.

But I do know that we have a way to go, and we have this industry in a strong, healthy, competitive position.

And it is, of course, the building of this country.

Because you are the builders of the country.

Really, direct sense.

Not only following the actions, but the builders of the country.

And

It's a, and I hope you could all see that future role.

There's a famous story, you know, the Middle Ages.

Two stone masons were working on a cathedral.

Someone came up to them and said, what are you doing?

One looked out and said, I appreciate it.

The other looked out and said, I feel good even.

And I think everybody in this industry should be very proud of that condition, too.

the most efficient in the world.

I think it is.

It seems so.

It'd be better.

In other words, it'd be better.

It means you can't do it by having labor management in constant competition.

You've got to instruct.

We want to be wrong, and we want to have to talk about the wrong things and the rest.

But I say, we have a constant confrontation, so that we paralyze the growth of the country as a whole.

Also, if you look at the story of Great Panic, you will find that, particularly where what we call green economy is concerned, and of course that's a relevant term, particularly where they were concerned once,

You get into a posh where labor is isolated from the rest of the people, then you can be very, very strong.

Because when you have that, if you have this class warfare, if you have argument about the wrong reasons, rather than bread and butter and...

The things that really matter in the labor-management relationship, you have arguments about the class differences.

And the great thing about this country has been that we have avoided that in recent years.

I mean, it came close to it at times, but in recent years, we have been having more and more communication between people.

I think it's enormously important that when we have a problem like this, rather than approaching the problem in terms of saying, look here, wages are too high in this industry, that means prices are too high, so we'll have a government that says, calm down.

Rather than approach it that way, we say, the leaders of life are the leaders of humanity.

There's a government goal here.

On the other hand, we can't do it without you.

We need you.

We need your help.

And I think part of this is very easy.

Very encouraging about this group.

You, who have to be, are natural protagonists, you know.

That's part of the system.

That's good.

That's what makes this country go.

That tagging and rubbing needs to go together.

It sticks together.

It makes us grow.

But on the other hand, that's here.

among the people who were thinking of building this country, rather than just building their own little empire, providing their own little family, without any ideas about what...

So...

I do express my appreciation.

I was glad to learn that this is one of the rare groups in this community that is not subsidized.

So for that reason, I thought that I should, I always try to find something, some other training to give to people who come here.

So we're going to go a little further with you.

That's unusual.

But I...

I thought that he should be like that.

For all of the hours of volunteer work, he's just getting ready to go back home to his wife.

He's going to smoke a lot, I guess.

At least he'll tell those clowns to come in and do nothing but direct snow.

Thank you, President.

That's good.

You've had to review our work.

We'll keep working at it.

Right.

Well, we expect results, you know, and...

I don't think he's going up and up and up.

He's going up and up and up.